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Aren't You Excited?!

Posted on Aug 8th, 2008 by Julian : integral healer Julian
The opening of the Crystalline Gateway on 08/08/08



Thoughts?

By what criteria shall we assess these claims?

Besides he obvious philosophical and empirical analysis - which this kind of stuff can't stnd up to for a second, perhaps I will quote myself here viz understanding why this is NOT an example of  transrational spiritual insight:

"Prerational spirituality  will include (instead of transcend):

* fantastical beliefs
* unscientific views of reality
* confusions between inner and outer reality and their relationships (category/quadrant errors), and very often
* various kinds of metaphysical denial structures around suffering, trauma, injustice, and the randomness of the world at large.

Generally there is a narcissistic tone - one of specialness, being at the center of the universe, being chosen, having angels, spirit guides and special intentional powers etc..


On the other hand the transrational worldview is in no way at odds with reasonable perceptions and interpretations of reality - it just takes them deeper, develops them further. There is a choice-less awareness of the reality of suffering and injustice - without the ironically linear attempt to make spiritual sense of these things via metaphysics. The transrational worldview is deeply compassionate and insightful, discerning and realistic. It encapsulates reality as it is and sees the sacred awe-inspiring nature of life without denying any of it's horror or meaninglessness."

(On a purely psychological/existential note: notice the tone of completely transcending suffering and basically all that's wrong with the world being set right by the magic numbers, cosmic rays etc.. this is classic wishful thinking and soothing fantasy as a defense against reality...)

Some have criticized this, but I maintain that viz the spiritual line of development, the beliefs and assertions must not violate basic rational standards in order to pass the first qualifier for being genuinely transrational. I am confident that this basic premise is rock solid - and challenge anyone to come up with a plausible  example to the contrary.

Surely it is clear that the above "information" fails to do this and that this is enough to identify it is prerational mumbo jumbo?!

To quote Wilber from the same piece:

""The mystical state is often beyond words. It is trans-rational because you have access to rationality but it's temporarily suspended. A 6-month-old infant, for instance, is in a pre-rational state, whereas the mystic is in a trans-rational state. Unfortunately, "pre" and "trans" get confused. So some theorists say the infant is in a mystical state."

"The rational scientist looks at all the pre-rational stuff as nonsense -- fairies and ghosts and goblins -- and lumps it together with the trans-rational stuff and says, "That's nonrational. I don't want anything to do with it."

Though some of my friends here find th above quote problematic or oversimplified - I find it straightforward and to the point - it needn't be any more complicated. I am using this 8.8.8. video as an example of the reasoning above - it is not an example of transrational insight or cognition or spirituality precisely because it is so easily debunked by simple rational analysis. It so clearly commits quadrant errors, logical fallacies and is based in magical thinking. Genuinely transrational material would commit none of these obvious errors, while still expanding beyond simply rational awareness. Again, I am confident of this being a consistently verifiable principle.

The point: There is a difference between violating the laws of science and reason in an erroneous way and expanding them in a healthy way. Prerational defensive magical thinking-based spirituality does the former, contemporary transrational, expansive, discerning, practice-based spirituality does the latter. Period.

The video is an example of how pre and trans get confused - with the added New Age twist of pseudoscience and odd OCD mathematical, geometric meaningless formulas.... This stuff actually impresses a lot of people in the spiritual community and even several prominent persons in the "Integral" community.

As soon as this is not such a ubiquitous confusion I will stop harping on it!

I can hardly wait - maybe 8.8.08 will be the turning point...if I only believe!



Access_public Access: Public 31 Comments Print views (3,979)  
about 1 hour later
Crouching Tiger said

By what criteria?  Logical?  Historical?  Empirical? 
Hmm, 07/07/07 passed rather uneventfully.


Now I've got that old song by The Who running through my mind :) 

Every day you'll see the dust (Too much, the Magic Bus)
As I drive my baby in my Magic Bus (Too much, the Magic
Bus)”

Sanjuro : Digger
about 2 hours later
Sanjuro said

Buddy, you are spending too much time find the cooks! They ain't going away! :)

Julian : integral healer
about 4 hours later
Julian said

i wish i understood the joke sanjuro - i bet its hilarious!

buddhacious : Human Being
about 7 hours later
buddhacious said

“new crystalline flower of life christ consciousness energies”

That does sound exciting, but I have no idea what it means. Something nice, I'd imagine.

I'm not hedging my bets on ascension to a higher dimension on Dec. 21, 2012.

What did 144 have to do with anything? Did I miss something?

This video has magic written all over it. There really is something magical about calendars, though… like the way we all obey the order of the days and mythologize time into a numerical progression toward some special date in the future when everything will change (whether due to the return of christ, technological utopia, the beginning of WW3, or whatever). Maybe we all don't do that. But calendars are another one of those powerful magic symbols (like money) whose patterns of use are rooted as deep as any other ritual in our civilization. We shouldn't underestimate the degree to which the role of the calendar in our lives remains largely unconscious to us. And we shouldn't overestimate the degree to which the calendar (a man-made contrivance) aligns with some hidden geometric matrix underlying our galaxy.

Speaking of hidden dimensions, what do you think of this video by Dirk Laureyssens, titled We Are All Connected! What IS REAL Entanglement?

Sanjuro : Digger
about 11 hours later
Sanjuro said

Nothing hilarious my old friend, nothing hilarious at all.

Annie : Student of life
about 11 hours later
Annie said

i hear ya sanjuro… they are kooks and don't seem to be going away anytime soon.

love the who reference erin.

about 12 hours later
cHAngeL said

I'm excited!

Thoughts:

Here is a grounded gateway.

Come be a building block.

Join the NOW movement.

Keep watching :)

http://2senseworth.gaia.com/

http://2senseworth.gaia.com/blog/2008/8/project_generation_now

Coyoteyogi : An  Unusual Suspect
about 14 hours later
Coyoteyogi said

Hi Julian,  I think this kind of numerlogical magic contains its own cure. Since I was unaware of this video until today, 08-09-08, I didn't notice anything unusual in my “energy” nor my daily meditation.  What would be interesting is to hear from someone involved with this group who is willing to share their experience. It is interesting to me. I am fascinated by the intersection of our human need to 'make sense' of the world and the desire to fit our experience into a geometric design. These folks have their flower of life mandala, KW has his 4 quadrants.gotta go. on the road and it ain't my computer…this is good fun Julian but nothing to raise my heart rate about

Julian : integral healer
about 14 hours later
Julian said

omg i can barely stand to comment b/c there are…….. 8 comments right now!

soon to be 9.

oh well.

guess it was just another day.

just another number…

but i can feel the cosmic rays, the crystalline flower, the christ number 144 getting activated in me - i know i can, i believe i can and I can make it so!

so it is - and now we are enlightened!

BELIEVE…

(hey maybe I'll get a pony too….surely thats easy for an enlightened master to manifest?!)

AlcheMystic : AlcheMystic
about 14 hours later
AlcheMystic said

Here is a question.  How would this information feel if it were viewed from the heart and not the head?  If we continue to measure and define things with the current tools which are limited to this form and time of existence we will not gain any new understanding.

I am a proponent of taking what resonates and leaving behind the rest.  I am also a supporter of respecting all views, especially the ones that do not resonate with me.  Something not resonating with me does not render it invalid.  It would be fabulous if we could all have an open mind.  An open mind increases the opportunity for real magic to happen!

Julian : integral healer
about 14 hours later
Julian said

read the new text i just added alche - and see what you think.

resonance is not really what i am talking about.

if the “information” had to do with the heart I would be all for what you are suggesting - but it doesn't - it's a confused pseudoscience, numerological head trip - and as such is easy to assess for it's denial/fantasy quotient.

this stands in stark contrast to heart-centered healthy spirituality a la say jack kornfield giving instruction in lovingkindness or forgiveness meditation.

knowing the difference has become key in our relativist smorgasbord spiritual marketplace…

btw: what would make something invalid to your thinking? i am not saying the above is invalid b/c it doesn't “resonate” - i am assessing it using certain principles, yea?

as far as “real magic” goes - see if this speaks to you.


all the best
~j

Zakariyya : Revealer
about 15 hours later
Zakariyya said

  With all due respect



The Problems with Julian's analysis, for starters:


The major problem is that he doesn't offer an example of what he would identify as an example of  healthy [ in his view] “Translational” spiritual  ideas.


[ He can't use Wilber because Wilber's ideas are fuzzy, and imprecise, and don't even include any clear specifics themselves ] All the Wilberians do is default to the traditional wisdom traditions in some form, THEY HAVE NO NEW IDEAS THEMSELVES,  THAT MAKE MUCH SENSE.

Read my essays Wilber 5 and Metaphysics

And The Myth of the Given and the Forgotten on Integral world for a precise debunking of Julian, and Wilber type ideas.



Also he is attacking harmless New Age ideas that are not pernicious like exoteric fundamentalist where they demonize people they eventually [ if they gain power] will oppress.


All metaphysics is based on things people can't see; therefore on the unseen.

Ironically, the first pillar of Islam is not to believe in God, but to believe in the unseen-Arabic [Gaybee].

The point being that we have a degree of faith in any doctrine in metaphysics and spirituality, but we don't know for certain until we practice and gain experience through knowledge, and then we move from faith to knowing. For Julian to pretend there is a metaphysics or ‘post-metaphysics” that starts at knowing, is problematic, to say the least.


To use an example of a groups inner ideas of the universe as an illustration of pre-rational disguised as spirituality out of a vacuum, not considering that the piece may be an internal message to a particular group, is somewhat unjust in my view. Imagine trying to explain the logic of the four Quadrant abstractions to a new comer to the ideas.


 

Also, most if not all of metaphysical doctrines, offer the idea that the culmination of experience of successful practice will solve the problems of life that we all face in some context,  and certainly that context may be unknown to us, therefore why mock people who express this notion, in some form.


BOTTOM LINE BRO

WHERE IS THE BEEF!


zAK

about 18 hours later
Crouching Tiger said

Glad you added the text!  When I added the magic bus comment only the video was posted (hence, the magic bus…).  lol, I ain't getting on that 8 8 8 magic bus (crazy train?)!

”* various kinds of metaphysical denial structures around suffering, trauma, injustice, and the randomness of the world at large.”  Agreed!

Magical world thinking alone leads to sooo much unnecessary secondary suffering.  It reminds me of Bible Belt fundamentalists admonishing members of their congregation for their suffering being their own fault; if they believed and prayed hard enough, God would take away their cancer, make the tornadoes miss their house, get them that new car, fill their bank accounts.  Heaping heavy stones of judgment and blame on top of an already heavy load of suffering and pain!  Really ticked me off and I was one of the few voices of reason when I lived in that part of the country…  Not too popular, ha ha ha.

Magical thinking and positive thinking are DIFFERENT - not sure some people get that.  Magical thinking is irrational.  Positive thinking is rational.  Positive thinking will quite logically increase one's chances of a fruitful, contented, full life - but it's not a guarantee or some invisible force field shield against things that do - and will - happen in life. 

Well I woke up today feeling fine and good but I can't say I feel any differenlty now that all that 8 8 8 magic was supposedly going on in the world yesterday!  I watched a funny video by http://www.infidelguy.com/ last night.  He didn't mean it to be funny but I couldn't help but laugh in agreement with him the way he very plainly stated irrational belief and actions. 

I still feel this putting on your gloves and refusing to back down concerning this magical  thinking stuff is one of the most important messages you shout out to the world.

andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~
about 18 hours later
andrew said

she said at the end of the video that all people would feel this shift yesterday! it saddens me that i appear not to be part of the all cause it seemed like any other day to me……..
i do agree with zak tho that these new agey assertions do seem relatively benign and maybe even childish compared to other issues we face on this planet at this time…perhaps some time spend on analyzing the mean orange meme would be well spent also…
in my opinion any truly objective worldview would have to concede the possibility of the unseen. even such a great mind as william james concedes this! having said that i am sure he would get a good chuckle out of this video……..

Julian : integral healer
about 20 hours later
Julian said

ooooh zak this is meaty - look froward too responding when i get a chance - thanks!

andrew the unseen is real!

i am not a reductive materialst scrooge! no MOM here, bro - unless the only alternative to MOM is the above video or various other speculative metaphysical supernatural faith's…

the psyche, energy, consciousness itself, emotions, creativity, group-mind, the effect music has on the limbic system, touch, breath - all invisible, all powerful, none supernatural though….

transrational embraces the intrapsychic world with depth, nuance, analysis, respect - it looks at mythology, mysticism, poetic metaphor, archetype, mind-body process, altered states etc with incredible awe and respect - while still applying a level of interpretation that (while deeply honoring the experiential, meaning-laden depths and non-rational associative/intuitive logic)  does not include whimsical prerational superstitious, supernatural and science/reason defying hubris-laden gullibility!

the big joke is that most of what i get asked to accept/entertain in the name of going beyond rational - are patently reductionist faux-rational pseudoscience notions like the above numerology-based BS (hmm very non-rational right? everything is based on numbers?!) or astrology (oh yeah let's draw a fake grid on the sky and pretend there are all these correspondences between the way the planets supposedly move and our human personalities/affairs…this is non-linear spiritual depth, huh!?) or let's look at the Mayan calendar and it's supposed prophecies, or even the junk science, bad mysticism of what the bleep…. none of this stuff has any depth and all of it is actually just bad rational dressed up as spiritual.

hmm come to think of this maybe i am responding to zak here too! :O)

andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~
about 20 hours later
andrew said

why would you think that my mom comment was directed towards you? :)
what i was leading to was that you do spend a lot of time debunking the mean amber meme and the mean green meme. the former being much more destructive than the latter as zak rightfully pointed out. i for one would like to see you bebunk some of the equally dangerous mean orange trends that have developed over the last 300 years that are as or even more destructive to love, peace liberty and justice on this earth……..i shall not help you in this endeavor if you do chose to consider doing it….but only because i'd be really interested in hearing what you think are pathological orange worldviews…….but please, no picking on tony robbins who is just too easy a target!lol

Zakariyya : Revealer
about 21 hours later
Zakariyya said

 

People will always jump the gun and pretend they know something they don't know


Others, through ignorance, sloth and or obsession will distort truth


Some will be outright frauds, and charlatans


Some a combination of all the above, it's all a part of the very imperfect human condition.


Or just mentally ill people who have a need to embrace superficial sky-God beliefs


Calling it pretrans fallacy, myth of the given,  are just fancy terms for common ignorance borne by the distorted nature the human has evolved to over time, and maintained by itself.


All of this is a part of what I label in my spiritual cosmology the technical term, the Ellipse: the fallen broken consciousness that needs religion, spirituality, and metaphysics, with the hope of systematically returning the human to their lost nature.


It is this ellipse fallen nature itself that produces the distorted views Julian is trying to understand.


His idea of “rationality” has nothing to do with any pretrans, or tran rationality, at all, it has to do with sanity and insanity in the extreme, or just neurotic displacement, or sublimation.


Now the ellipse is not an insanity but the structural corruptive reality of the soul that produces our inclination to the crazy things we do on all levels. It can exacerbate mental illness, but even the most sane and rational person is crippled by the ellipse because the very fact that they require spirituality means they are blind


A  Sufi master once said:


“Give me those who the snare of the world has not trapped , and they I can teach”


Buddha said:  “I will teach, for those with a little dust in their eyes”


The trap and the dust is the Ellipse - the imperfect circle, to believe this is created by nothing, or ramdom choas, to me is irrational


Spirituality is a unique challenge where few arrive at complete success, for those who tread the spiritual path in a sense are fighting against God, or the way  nature has erected this game of duality.

clyde : muse muser
1 day later
clyde said

the new 'no heavy lifting please' 'spirituaity' is not benign.  I have three examples from my own experience with friends who believed in these things they could not touch and could not support but  through faith (and pop culture or potential 'reason') alone that had life and death consequences.  the 'ascenders' are just one group of the 'new age' gimme instant spiritual gratification group who turn back the clock right back to the days of 'faith', where 'experts' or those in closer connection with God, or exhaulted authorities KNEW the truth. The truth we gulped up with little more than their confident pronouncements.  Have we learned nothing from that experience?  Who the hell are these people anyhow?  Why are our memories so short?

What shall we base our beliefs on?  THAT seems to be the central question revolving around our 'open minded' spiritual quests these days.

One thing I've learned from my passion with philosophy over the years is that not only is an open mind requisite, but also a capacity of discernment as we open the box of our beliefs.  I think an open mind is the beginning of the philosophical endeavor (at least as our understanding of 'philosophy' first blossoms).  I think it DOES also open up many pathways to a deeper 'genius' and capacity that surface level examinations render inadequate.  But then we are open and flimbsy with nothing, no criteria, no oars, nothing to truly rest on.  How DO we construct as we deconstruct?  What do we make of our conjurings?   An open mind is ONE criteria, but not the only criteria.  The capacity to reach certain conclusions using basic validity claims another.  And this is just as much of philosophizing, or reality examinating, as anything.  Never losing the open mind, but also constructing and reconstructing and reconstructing.  Regular reexamination with tools to assess and move forward.

Ever been duped? Bamboozeled? Hoodwinked?  Bullshit IS rampant and tradition dieing off.  We ARE opening our minds, but what are we to do with our new found freedom, our newfound power?  Bullshit is heavy even in the nicey nice corners of spirituality.  Word games, word play, charisma, plays on desire, easy outs, nice 'meaningful' connections, etc.  What shall we believe?

I suppose, however, that is best to move on.  While they ascend, and the energy that noone really felt (accept for those with extra large helpings of the placebo affect), runs through our lives, we must go forward with ours.  As frustrating as the new 'church' is, it's  their thing.  I gave up arguing with 'faith' long ago.  But I would like to engage them, my brothers and sisters ALWAYS, on one aspect: The harm done.

So…in one sense I guess I'm with Andrew here.  In another, I completely disagree that their actions are benign (I at least completely deny that the case IS closed).  Nonsense, especially very fervently believed nonsense DOES leave a mark (perhaps the greatest mark left on us all is untruth).  At least I haven't seen this discussion anywhere.  what ARE the consequences of the 'magical' group?  Even if there IS truth to a certain part of that group, what about all the charletons who dupe the believers into actions based on their prognostications, recommendations, and visions?  I think it's clear such a conversation should happen.  ESPECIALLY for the responsible portions OF the 'magical' community.  What do THEY, the TRUE seers of the future themselves think about the cloud that shrouds their reputations from the work of amatuers, charletons, and those in need of medication.  Why is there no criticism whatsoever in this movement.  Strangly perhaps, because there is NO central authority and no real unifying claim.  They're all free to believe as the do without consequences or anyone reigning them in.  Isn't this a rarity in institututions?  A dissassociating 'clique'?  If anything it is EXTREMELY fascinating as a movement.  I think it is a movement born of an increased openness AND grand desire to find a deeper meaning.  Perhaps the cornerstone to the drive toward a greater spiritual existance.  One big issue is, is that many of us want instant gratification, instant answers, instant salvation, and instant noodles.

So…I dont think Julian's focus is wrong.  I think Julian is fervant about this because it flies in the face of what 'spirituality' actually is–according to him AND a large body of evidence that points to the experience and not all the paranormal, 'law of attraction', psuedo spirtuality, etc.  It's about finding harmony with our 'neighbor'.  With our 'enemy'.  All the while cultivating love but not sacrificing truth.  So we love incredibly, but also correct or challenge wherever possible. 

Aliens and ascensions, sprites and fairies misses the mark…horribly.  Heavy lifting (meditation, contemplation, shadow work) and simplicity and insight are the approaches that evolution requires (feel free to correct or amplify or both where wrong.  this is how *I* read the essence of your frustration Julian, though I know you can clarify your position better than I). 

Anyhow, I think Julian's challenge is beautiful.  I think it is one of many such nexus's of communication and 'calling out' that needs to happen.  We shouldn't be shy about voicing our ideas and opinions. Especially when it is a learned one.  And I think Julian has not only credentials, but a far better argument that can be much more strongly supported.  

At least, before they are simply dismissed as loons, clearly it is important to examine the harm done in living in a false fantasy world.  I'm not so sure why this isn't a much stronger issue in spiritual corners where we are taking such risks with our reality.   Thinking there is no harm in delusion is completely irresponsible.  Becoming detached from reailty IS a concern.  And every single 'new age' or magical thinking individual out there MUST know that there are plenty of people out there peddling complete BS that cut to the core of an individual's belief systems and therefore decision making capacity.

The magic may be there. Hell, it probably is.  But…there is also an enormous amount of painful and unchallenged nonsense.

andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~
1 day later
andrew said

hi clyde, i think the operative word was relatively……benign..i don't disagree with your analysis but interestingly enough marmalade recently did a history of the new age blog that you can find in the is there a god pod and it shows that the new age movement has not been all bad. i've been around the fringes of the movement for over 30 years in vancouver and my own personal experience with these folks is that they are decent and caring people no matter how misguided their metaphysics are. having said that ,i also wonder how healthy it really is to believe some of this seeming nonsense as you put it, and certainly cults like the ufo cult in san diego and new age gurus exploiting gullible people for profit seems like a deep sickness to me.i guess all i am asking is to deconstruct the whole spiral including integral (right adam?). that seems like a fairer more genuinely balanced approach instead of focusing on what's wrong with only a couple of the memes. now when i first read wilber in 2001 one of the first things i did was search out critiques and of course came across vissers site. i think i would have made a half way decent journalist. i did he same thing when i read the urantia book in '94. i searched out without the internet someone who took the time to write a critique of that fantastical book. i've done this with religion,too….and you can bet i am quite critical of orange values also, at least the ones i think are unhealthy and destructive….
i hope that helps clarify my position. so is william james not someone who is credible?

elementstew : marshal
1 day later
elementstew said

“”The mystical state is often beyond words. It is trans-rational because you have access to rationality but it's temporarily suspended. A 6-month-old infant, for instance, is in a pre-rational state, whereas the mystic is in a trans-rational state. Unfortunately, “pre” and “trans” get confused. So some theorists say the infant is in a mystical state.”

“The rational scientist looks at all the pre-rational stuff as nonsense – fairies and ghosts and goblins – and lumps it together with the trans-rational stuff and says, “That's nonrational. I don't want anything to do with it.”

Damn, if that doesn't annoy the shit outta me….

The mystical state is beyond words? How about mathematics? Einstien and Bohm seem, to me, like good trans-rational mystics and they translated/unleashed some powerful insights.

Often…., but not always?

temporarily suspended? = non, not trans. reminds me of that TED talk with the woman who suffered the stroke…..
isn't the baby in a pre-rational stage? are all mystics rationally competent? hyper-rational? post-formal operational?

that's just one scientist? or all scientists? can there be irrational scientists? hyper-rational scientists? post-rational, transrational? aren't the ghost-busters scientists?

Balder did a great, although long winded, teatment of that transrational sense and nonsense.


anyhow, I see all the new-agey stuff as part of the proliferation of differentiation…..

1 initial fusion

2 seperation/differentiation

3 transcedence

KW's three part process, remember? I like how he applied it to The Enlightenment…when the value spheres were differentiated and Art, Morals and Science were freed to pursue their own ways.

applying it to religion/spirituality…..I dont think religion and spirituality have been properly/thoroughly teased apart yet, but I suspect this is part of the process.

I do think Marx had it mostly right, but he didn't have the hindsight we have available to us now, so….

if religion is the opiate of the masses,
spirituality is the _________ of society.

ya'll feel free to fill in that blank….

AlcheMystic : AlcheMystic
2 days later
AlcheMystic said

Ok, I just noticed that http://satyaseer.gaia.com/ has 144 friends.  He simply must be the second coming of Christ!  It is pure Magic!

Somewhat more seriously, Julian, I appreciate you referring me to your previous blog.  If NOTHING else, it showed me that I am not the only one that finds your writing to be very “heady.”  LOLOLOL    Actually it showed me more than that.  It validated the reasons that I sent you a friend request back whenever I did send it.  I do have interest in possibly experiencing your bodywork.  I went back and forth on whether or not to comment on your 8/8/8 blog.  As I watched the video my husband immediately began to ridicule it and I asked him to please allow me to listen to it in peace.  He takes a similar stance to yours.  I don't entirely disagree with you two or the others here who agree with you.  I also do not entirely agree.  Parts of the video resonated with me and parts did not.  I think the overall delivery was very lacking and it would be easy to feel talked at by the narrator. 

When I decided to comment on your blog I was reacting to what I perceived as ridicule from you and the other commenters who did not resonate with the video.  I wondered if you guys felt that a person could not find value inthe information and still be a rational grounded person or did it automatically make one a bliss ninny?  Perhaps I will go find a comment I left on another's blog about lightworkers.  I suppose I decided to appoint myself as advocate for all the others out there who are grounded, rational, disciplined and still fascinated/accepting of the value of things like numerology, the existence of other dimensions, the Mayan calendar, energetic gateways, energy grids, etc. 

Every form of religion/spirituality will attract followers with a need to guided, a need to be handed something to believe. And every faith will have within those people who are more than willing to take advantage of those people.  This dynamic does not render the information invalid. 

With respect,

Mimi

clyde : muse muser
2 days later
clyde said

Hey there Andrew.  For some reason, this is a hot button issue with me.  And I think there are 1/2 a dozen reasons why.

NO, William James is amazing.  I am in the middle of a book right now in which the theme is the questioning of scientific rationality or at least in expanding the idea of what can constitute 'empirical'. Why can't I remember his name!  Founding member of Eselan.  Anyhow, intreresting.  brings in James and others pushing the envolope of what 'science' is.

As to chalIenging the whole spiral.  I also believe Julian is taking up the Integral idea that it is the underbelly of green which needs attention as the damn to  ushering in a larger spearhead of integrals.   As you probably know, Wilber is adament about this.   And the argument is valid if Ken's stats are right and spiral dymanics is solid.  It at least seems like a nice construct to work with.  Which is all I do.  I play with that construct and see where it goes.  Not married to it.

Yeah, I looked for critiques of Wilber as well and am ALWAYS looking to critique his work.  I think one has to since his work is such a grand gesture.  What and where are the significant flaws, ommissions, etc in Integralism as Wilber has put forth.  I'll have to follow up on that link: 'vissers'?  Maybe you can toss me back an address?

Anyhow, thanks for the clarification Andrew

clyde : muse muser
2 days later
clyde said

Hi Mimi,

you said:

“I suppose I decided to appoint myself as advocate for all the others out there who are grounded, rational, disciplined and still fascinated/accepting of the value of things like numerology, the existence of other dimensions, the Mayan calendar, energetic gateways, energy grids, etc.”

I am personally VERY fascinated by all the things you mention and wouldn't mind at all if they were true.  Actually, I think it would definately spice things up (which I do believe is a subconscious draw for many–hence the recurring reference as 'magical'). 

But then there is the accepting part.  I made a very conscious decision to clarify my life to draw a distinction between levels or gradations of certitude, and at the end of that spectrum is the 'play area'.  The things which are in the works.  The speculative realm.  The world of possibilities, hatching from the imagination and tentative,  It IS possible.  And worthy of follow up.  There are degrees of solidity (generally only in the form of principals, personal standards, practices, ways of creating constructs as guides, the limits and strengths of language, of knowing, etc) and there's the speculative realm.  I LOVE the speculative realm.  I also LOVE trying to build on a firm foundation and moving forward with that.  I also think there is MUCH more to be said about this approach than is being said.  And that is where my faith lies.  With the expectation that much of it will be transcended and discarded along the way.  With this sort of approach (the one I think we all take anyhow, more or less consciously) the previous 'intuitive' or 'rational' world DOES melt.  Enter paradox, where what we thought was so, just ain't.  What seemed inherently 'real' was not.  My point here is that it's not any attachment to the ground of the 'rational' world or convention or even science that I adhere to.  Paradox and contradiction and uncertainty is a very regular part of my day and my life.  I'm not 'hanging on to' any world view.  My 'world' has melted many times before. So…it's not any attachment to anything super solid or even mental.  I'm hoping to just use the mind to help find a balance with it and the heart, soul, spirit, etc.  It's just a tool.  But an incredibly valuable one that MANY are underutilizing in favor and deference to the 'gut'.  Present company excluded ;-)

Anyhow, there's truth on both sides.  Personally, I would love to see and experience a stronger bridge or taste of the things mentioned.  I have had experiences, glimpses, or tastes of this sort of thing.  I just think I need a full dinner.

The 'magical' realm (and this CAN sound like ridicule, but it seems like the best descriptor at this point and is not meant as ridicule) needs a bridge.  When people 'open' their minds, they tend to become VERY suggestable. And some of us are more manipulateable than others.  Why Hypnosis works better on some than others, right?  They can then be led while being 'aware' and conscious.  But…if I were open to “The Secret” in that way, I WOULD have been swept away by the mere suggestion of this hidden power and cosmological construction of the universe.  But…I kept asking, where's the stats, the studies, and just who the hell ARE these people (lets not even get into how it breaks down logically and appears inherently self centered)  BECAUSE in my 'modern' brain I have learned to not believe everything I hear, see, and feel, I HAVE learned to avoid an enormous amount of pitfalls, traps, and scams.  Sure, it makes me more guarded.  But again, I think there's more BS than not out there.  That's just been my experience. 

How do I avoid getting taken in?  I've had friends, as mentioned, whose heads were played with and it turned out to be nonsense.  With very bad consequences.  Anyhow, how should I choose?  How do I know?  Is it only for the select?  I wouldn't mind anyone taking me down that path step by step.  Lets take numerology.  Where's the best webpage for me to get my feet wet?  The most credible?  Astrology?  Who can really lay it out there for me?  I don't mind doing the work.  I'd just like to have something credible and I will explore it. 

Balder : Kosmonaut
2 days later
Balder said

Hey, bro, just checking in to let you know I got the Christ Consciousness this weekend.  It's so cool.

I'm really sorry you were Left Behind.

starlight : StarLight Dancing
2 days later
starlight said

rotflmao…

Julian : integral healer
2 days later
Julian said

nice conversation!

digging your contributions clyde - thank you!

mimi - i appreciate and respect where you are coming from and feel your heart. at the same time - nope, it is not possible to be reasonable and grounded and “believe” in the kind of things being proposed in the above video - the two are simply mutually exclusive, by definition.

critical thinking, reason and a BS detector will not find anything valuable in such fluffy, substanceless, fabricated silliness…. except perhaps as a lens through which to reflect on the phenomenon of magical thinking, existential denial and pseudoscience.

now one might be reasonable and grounded in other areas (other lines of development) but this does not change the fact that buying into ANY of this cartegory of nonsense requires an abdication of critical thinking and reasonable analysis with regard to spirituality. this is precisely the problem.


what makes it invalid is not just a matter of choice or relativist opinion - its the category errors, quadrant reductionism, pseudoscience, magical thinking, absence of evidence for outlandish and fantastical claims, absence of solid argumentation or practice methodology, pretensions toward ultimate authority through some kind of “channeled” pretense etc….in short the fact that it is absolute made-up nonsense - and that is quite enough.

Zakariyya : Revealer
2 days later
Zakariyya said

 

I admit the lady on the tube sounded silly and phony, with that English squiky high pitched nasal voice.


Though I still don't understand why people are making a big thing out of the outer edge of  new ageism that has been around a long time now.


Why the jihad now?


I know of some stuff like that that to me is legit, such as William Henry.


For those who want legitimate stuff like this check out William Henry


Remember Wilber himself has had lapses with sky-god thinking, we all are prone to that.


As for this tube, it is presented so phony without any degree of sincerity


Anyway, nice seeing you, its back to the ouija board for me!

Zakariyya : Revealer
2 days later
Zakariyya said

The ouija board says this:
Listen up:


 

Could we savor the wheat if not burned by the chaff?


I accept the foolishness, if sincere, and harmless.


Though the charlatans, who deceive for profit are foul


True, those who are simpleminded can be dangerous if snared by a bin laden type, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, Dave Koresh, etc.. But most of these cults of the new age end up harmless people.


Bad gross stuff like that utube makes all new age stuff look bad.

But nothing is ever all bad.

Nahnni : Sun and Moon
3 days later
Nahnni said

Hello.

It may be the luxury, indeed, the legacy, of the Latin West (based on time honored ego and acquisition) that all roads have led from Rome with these amalgamation of spiritual concepts.  To those cunning and persistent enough to exploit even their own cultural mythology, we have an endless landscape filled with whatever the ego feels most at home with…and there are always those who will follow in willing mindlessness without further exploration, like mariners who fear falling off the edge of the sea and so stay within the confines of mirage.

My own issue with much of the “new age” spiritual assortment, aside from a genuine bemusement over such solipsism in point of view,  is the misappropriation of cultural heritage (even given time washes away and transforms) that is occurring with amazing speed by reconfiguration of story and experience.  I think there are many factors involved in why individuals or groups of individuals follow without discernment.  From Maslow's hierarchy of needs met and unmet, to suffering and fear of suffering, to deep and terrible loneliness, there are as many reasons for those who follow blindly as for those who do not.

I think it is impossible to judge an authentic spiritual experience that will satisfy the deepest link within each individual.  What seems absurd to one, may be transforming for another; however, I do think discernment is imperative and so, too, stepping outside of one's world view (which will always be limited).  Many things exist.  It may be a Grace, a blessing, insight or a mercy to be able to surpass one's initial response and not attempt alteration of what IS, but to flow with it and do what we can to ease oppression in whatever form it takes.  I think one's ability to view chaos and admit suffering and experience joy and beauty as part of the paradox within the deeper Mystery and Nature of Things, is the gift granted through insight and encompasses the broader spectrum of things. 

But if we judge too harshly those things which appear absurd to us, or in direct conflict with reality as we perceive it, then we open the doors to a peculiar elitism that does no one any benefit.  I do agree that the deepest experience mutes the voice.  We are often so trapped in wanting to define verbally our experience, compare it to what we know or feel we understand, that we become suspicious, almost fearful, of silences.  I think the blessing of poetry is the song our actual voice cannot speak.  That, too, becomes a paradox.

I have enjoyed reading your articles.

Blessings~

james : human
3 days later
james said

Thanks Nahnni,

I think you make an important point : “But if we judge too harshly those things which appear absurd to us, or in direct conflict with reality as we perceive it, then we open the doors to a peculiar elitism…”

Mea culpa, sometimes.

3 days later
Crouching Tiger said

Now this is my kind of Superstition ;)

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