Simply Put #3

Hey Julian, I'm really digging this Simply Put series. It always gives me something to ponder and reflect upon throughout the day. Keep up the good work.

Yogi-J! Loving this KISS series!

I left a longer comment in Simply Put #2.
But this one really resonates for me.
peace. /b

Very nicely done, Julian.  I'm also a fan of this series of yours.  Thank you.

I have a few thoughts related to a couple of your points which I may post later.

Best wishes,

Bruce

I'm enjoying your pithy Simply Put series. They'd be good on cards, I bet, the way Tibetan Buddhist “Atisha slogans” or “mind training slogans” (or which there are 59) work well on cards.

this one touches the core.

nurturing yourself,  patient and feeling

offering nourishment to the places that haven't seen the light of day.

yes… so it is… the breath moving in and out.

Beautiful, touching deep.

I wonder if there is much choice even in becoming aware.

There obviously is something like 'more awareness' which is the product of taking time regularly to 'become aware', and there  is and 'dimmer awareness'.

And yet, when falling asleep at night I loose awareness (sometimes to regain it in sleep, but rarely - I know I can, but presently don't care to work at regaining it in dream and sleep). I don't choose to loose it, it is a natural happening, somehow regularly spontaneous. And either by alarm-clock or spontaneously in the morning I regain some measure of awareness; and depending on I don't know what, I'm brilliantly aware or sometimes barely.

Looking at the finer granularity of awareness (and I'm using the term as if it meant the same as consciousness) I see that in the course of a day I move from brighter to dimmer to brighter, almost wavelike. And to be honest, there is rarely a moment of choice in there - outside of meditation. Whenever greater awareness dawns there is a sparkling that kindles it even further. ..

And it is a very real mystery to me how unawareness and unconsciousness dims on me, fades 'me' out. (I'm also fading out when moving to a brighter awareness, but it's another kind, another flavor of fading out.)

From having this daily experience I draw the conclusion that even in consciousness/awareness 'matters' there is hardly any choice. And “choosing to become passionately aware” - ah, yes! I remember saying that to myself looking in a mirror some days….

I also have a passion for honoring unconsciousness like a womb; like the roots in the dark soil running deep and deeper — I was going to say, “If I allow them”, but really, that's also out of my hands.

So do we choose anything, even the spiritual path we're on? I doubt it as much as I'm sure of it - it all depends where I am on the sliding scales of what is the mystery of reality, it all depends on the gradient of awareness that is here where I take myself to be….

your words hit home here, julian…thanks for sharing…

i also really enjoyed mushin's addition…beautiful reflections indeed…

i too often wonder if the spiritual path i am on was chosen by me as it seems to have been a result of a head injury…to myself and those that knew me, it was certain something most considered a miracle…but when i really think about it, i believe that this is where the choiceless choice comes in for me…i could have rejected any of the doorways presented on this path after the initial 'awakening', but i chose to move forward on to a path of greater responsibility and chose (and continue to choose) to compassionately face my shadows…i also know that to not have done so would have its own consequences, but it is a choice nonetheless…i call it choiceless because the pain and darkness and confusion that dominated my life before, made it just about impossible to regress (there might be a better term for this) back into…i have come across quite a few people that have been shown the potential of their own spirit but did not chose to step into that doorway…they chose to remain in their suffering, and in doing so it only grew…and as painful as it is to admit sometimes, especially when it is someone i have loved deeply, it has indeed been their choice to reject that which we seem to have chosen to accept..

so,  the way i like to think about it, is that although we do not necessarily get to choose the hallway we walk down, we do get to choose which doorways to enter…which then leads us to another hallway…ultimately leading to our ultimate destiny…the final doorway we call death…

and so on this path we walk…bound by the beautiful mystery of circumstance, yet gifted with wings of choice by which to create our story…going going going…until we are gone…

and so it was written.

much love to One and all…S.

Hi, Julian,

I think God must be happier with you than others – or perhaps you have better karma than other Gaians?  Maybe you're better at creating your own reality?  Whatever the case, the fact is, your blog page is one of the only pages I can access on Gaia right now.  I can't pull up my profile, other people's profiles, my mail, my blogs, my groups, anything.  (Zaadz/Gaia, as cool a place as it is in many ways, is also dogged with more technical problems than any other site I've belonged to.  And that's annoying…)

Anyway, thank you for recommending my Panikkar blog to your readers.  I welcome anyone's comments and contributions over there.  About the funny observation / gentle teasing that you posted, my politically incorrect retort is that some people have more of a right to use the word 'reality' than others!  Or at least they're better at it…  :-P

Since I'm not sure if Gaia will actually allow me to post right now, I'm going to submit this as an experiment and then post some more relevant observations and questions in a second letter if I'm successful (damned site…)

B.

I actually want to post “on topic” on your blog today, Julian, and I promise to do that in just a second!  But first, I'll give my return parry:  While in earlier letters you differentiated the philosophical points I've been making from Boomer relativism, in your last letter to me on Simply Put #2, you appear to put me in the Boomer relativist camp…so I'm not sure we're understanding each other yet!  Also, if I point out other places where “subtle metaphysics” hides, it does NOT mean I am therefore defending or supporting magical thinking or grosser forms of metaphysics!  I am sure you recognize that it is possible to question someone or ask them to refine their position without supporting (by default) those they are critiquing…  Anyway, I'll say more about this over on your other blog.

Now, to turn to this one…  There are three things I'd like to talk about.

1.  Would you agree that, while there are some things we have control over and other things that are beyond or outside of our “choice,” the range of choices available to us is not entirely fixed?  That our degree of freedom, so to speak, can increase (in some areas, not all) as we grow and develop?  That inquiry into where we have choice and where we do not will not turn up the same answers at every stage?

2.  You provided a list of “raw materials” for spiritual practice (genetic inheritance, psychological structure, life history and social conditioning).  Is this intended to be a complete list?  Are there any other things you might also list?

3.  What do you think about the possibility of a freedom that is not a choice-freedom – not contingent on the ability to choose or not choose, not defined by the “availability of choices”?

Best wishes,

Balder

Okay, great. 

1.  I thought so – the process you described didn't seem opposed to this – but I wanted to highlight it.

2.  I understand.  What else would you add to the list?

3.  My question about a freedom that is not choice-freedom inclines in the same direction as Hokai's question to you about “that which is quite beyond the scope of any conceptual frame of reference, but still ascertainable through rigorous spiritual practice taken to conclusion  (i.e. actual awakening).”  I'm curious if such non-conceptual realization forms a part of your overall model of spiritual development and awakening. 

Hey Julian, nice to meet u :)

I've read a few of your past posting and am always impressed by the breadth of knowledge and length of knowledge you are able to bring out. It's REALLY impressive. You may not have chosen to be smart, but clearly you are.

I haven't always agreed with what you've posted, because it seems so factual. But clearly from the comments you've received that energy seems to do well here.

But so much of what you write contradicts many beliefs I have. So my question is simple, how do you know we don't choose our parents? I can go further down the list of questions point by point, but I think to sum up my questions to you - how the hell are you so sure about these things you write?

Do you engage spirit guides and indulge the spirit realm, or do you not even believe in a spiritual realm that co-exists with us in this reality? I'm hoping your convictions don't come down to things you've read, because I can't see how you can be so frank and simplistic about items that I think go soooooo much further than you're expressing them here.

To say children (which isn't really accurate since we're talking about souls that will eventually encompass adolesence, adult hood, old age) don't choose to be born into poverty etc seems like you're looking at this from your current vantage point, that vantage point being a secure and lucky westerner who couldn't imagine choosing such lifestyles. But have you entertained the thought that through this suffering, we learn? Go up the ladder? This is how it is in our 3 dimensional visual world, so why are you so confident the same items don't apply to the birthing process I believe a segment of our present self brings forth to our present incarnate?

Wow that was a read.

All this response leaves me to say is; we agree to disagree. But no I'm not going to leave it there.

Julian I am not aware of most of the items you challenged my knowledge of. But I'm glad it came up, because you brought us to the root of our vantage points. Mine being the obscure, yours being an intellectual mind trying to comprehend an incomprehendable world.

I totally respect that you have “tried” these areas you classify as being relative to santa claus, if your arrogance weren't so blatent I'd almost say thank you. But instead I'm saying fuck you.

Fuck you because instead of entertaining that which you do not know, your approach on this site is that you do know. And you've found a HUGE niche to monopolize on. Kudos to you, kudos to politicians who feed on the weak minded.

You will win hands down if we are left with nothing else except your own personal venture to the meta physical - the unknown. But that's just another archetype which seeks to dilute the power of divine and the power of possibility. Which you'd probably agree you haven't closed the door on (as a saving point), but to come at this site that I take great pride in, and give the same flavor of a different sundae that evangelicals are so “sure” about, doesn't sit well with me. And though meditation works well for your practice in life, I'm sorry to report it's not going to save the world or better yourself any more than a great fuck with a hooker that feels great, then leads to nothing.

I can tell you that the areas which you've described and have since disregarded, are areas that have found me. I didn't search for them, they just resonated. I respect the time and research you claim to have given to this gray area of spirituality, but my friend you are so far gone I don't even know how to reach you in this response.

It seems your mind is made up, so that leaves little room for me to engage. I don't need to prove a point, and I certainly am not defending a spirituality that has taken me 15 years to cultivate, fine tune, and honor. But I will tell you my friend, you've met your match. And if it weren't for the 300 + friends you have, I wouldn't pay you any farther attention then the last shit I took.

Personal? Hell yeah, we're not democrats and republicans with contrasting sides having to make pretty for some famous person's funeral. We're talking life and death, and what life and death means to us and everyone reading this.

All you seem to offer is opium which sustains and re-defines how “spiritual” minded folk on here have gone back and forth on.

Dude I respect your opinion, but keep it as an opinion - welcome the vastness that you don't know and can't know from the approach you've lived life. Anyone who makes life pretty and simple is not a fallen angel, but a dangerous one that is the saint dressed up in red furry attire telling everyone to keep it simple - be good and good things will come.

Sorry Santa, I don't buy your shit. Nor your arrogance.

santa try responding to MY points, not new ones you introduce. there's 2 sides to a coin my friend.

i hope this inspires something in you or those reading this exchange to dig deeper than you've allowed, to relinquish the black/white mentality dressed up with historical and over intellecutalized prefaces.

you are a brave man to leave these comments up, i respect that much. and i've copied our dialogue so nothing with my friends perusing will be lost. and i hit  “update comment” not “send” - i don't need guidance to know common place modalities.

julian i wanted you to have the last word, and you probably still will which you should. but i can't leave this exchange with you summing up my response being motivated by insult. unlike what i gather from you, i don't take things personal - unless you call me a stupid faggot (which you have minus the faggot part).

no, this dialogue went much farther than personal ego. it's a personal calling. you can negate what i consider my *calling*, but you cannot deduce it down to being from my present 3-d avatar (jason incarnate).

thank you for allowing me to speak in this exchange. i promise i won't add any more comments because i've said what i've come to say.

Hi Jason,

I feel with you, and I understand you feeling insulted and that you therefore have the right to write the type of insulting post you wrote. And I do understand that it can be aggravating to have things you hold dear dismissed so clearly and pointedly, and without wrapping it up in a soothing kind of language.
I do understand that you felt that was an insult and so you hit back, and hit back big and strong.

That is as revealing about you as is Julian's style of writing and stating things is revealing about him.

The way I read  what he wrote in answer to you is this:  it reveals some of the motivation why he believes all the things he believes: he is up against the immense suffering some of the convictions that he so plainly (and you feel, rudely) dismisses have caused.

If, as you say about your teachers on your profile page here on zaadz/gaia, all who cross your path are your teachers, well then what about “rude” Julian?
I think he has interesting points which he sometimes - or maybe even often - communicates in a way that easily rises contradiction (I've had quite a few disagreements with him over time).
But he has often enough apologized when he crossed a line, although that didn't mean that he gave up on his beliefs.

I think it would be good if you had similar grateness: it would very much support what you say you believe. With your above comments I get the impression that what you believe and what you express here do not really mesh - and I always go with what I perceive people do in the end, preffering it over what they espouse.

Just wanted to say I really appreciate what you're doing here Julian.  You're one of the few people I've ever come into contact with that seems to never fall into the trap of “idiot compassion.”  Deep bow for you…

You 'handled' the MGM perfectly.

Hi Julian, been lurking and enjoying the dialogue. Especially liked the flare up with Jason. To misquote Santayana ” those who do not investigate the shadow are doomed to reap eat it…”
I visited the link above and very much enjoyed nora's initial offering.
  Bruce, thanks for your thoughtful responses.
May write offline a little later.
coyote

#3 is very grounding for me.

Julian, I posted a response to you in blog form:

Integral Postmetaphysics, Simply Put

B.

Great installment, Julian. I love the series.

To me, this is poetry at its best. It rings with truth. And ranks up there with Ken Wilber's contributions to better all of us in this world. You are a master of all 3 domains. Please, please, continue to share what you can and thank you!