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bodywork
September 2009 
Riding the Kundalini Dragon: Integrating Altered States
Posted on Jul 24th, 2007
by 
Julian
Julian
kundalini-yoga
Energy and Consciousness: Stay tuned for an amazing dialog on energy, altered states, healing, kundalini, sexuality, psychology and spirituality! This is Part One of an eight part Zaadz symposium (Zymposium) that runs from Wednesday July 25th through Friday August 3rd - with a break over the weekend.
See here for a description of Z2 and a list (and links) to the presenters....
It Begins
"Our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the right stimulus, and at a touch they are there is all their completeness…
No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite disregarded. How to regard them is the question…"
William James The Varieties of Religious Experience, p. 388
With this quote from a book published in 1901 by a man whom many regard as the father of psychology, I would like to begin a consideration of both the importance and the trickiness of altered state experience and phenomena, be they energetic, psychological, physiological and/or spiritual.
(Note: I got so involved with the information/perspectives I wanted to share here that a more personal account will appear in the comments section below..)
For now let me just say that my journey began at a young age - I began meditating at 15, emulated my 60's idols by experimenting with psychedelics in an intentional way after reading Tim Leary and Ram Das at 18 while exploring minor rock stardom in South Africa, came to the USA and started yoga at 19. I chased the light of new Age peak experiences in my early 20's - travelled to India, spent time in the ashram with Osho sanyassins, sat with countless satsang teachers, tried hard to create my reality, kill my ego and become one with the universe while remembering my past-lives and putting out the intention to call in my soulmate.......
I ended up realizing that therapy was indispensable, that I was in fact using spiritual beliefs to avoid my deep emotions and the reality of suffering, put in many, many hours on the Holotropic Breathwork mat, went on intense meditation retreats, practiced hardcore yoga early in the morning for years, had my body and psyche ripped open by kamikaze bodyworkers, struggled to make sense of the combination of of light and shadow in my charismatic mentor figures and eventually differentiate from them - and over time developed my own approach to integrating and facilitating energetic and altered state process work via yoga, bodywork, dialog, dance and breathwork.
How then to unpack the power, beauty, terror, magic and wonder of altered states and Kundalini experiences?
I will start by putting my perspective in a context. Ken Wilber's Four Quadrant model from Integral Theory works nicely.
Four Quadrant Gloss
wilber grid2
UR = Upper Right
UL = Upper Left
LR = Lower Right
LL = Lower Left
Chemistry and Brain States
We know that from an empirical point of view (UR, Objectivity) consciousness, and more specifically our state of consciousness is a function of brain states and biochemistry. Too little serotonin and one is depressed, too much dopamine and one is in the midst of a manic episode, scarring from head trauma can produce epilepsy, ingest just the right amount of LSD or mescaline and the folds in one’s trousers or the architecture of a rose (as Aldous Huxley famously described in The Doors of Perception) can become imponderably mysterious, beautiful, fascinating and spiritually rich. So too the sense of spaciousness, expansive loss of ego and connection to the cosmos one experiences in deep meditation can be tracked in relationship to brain function as in the recent work of Dr. Andrew Newberg:
"During meditation, people often feel a sense of no space. Scientists investigating the effect of the meditative state on Buddhist monk's brains have found that portions of the organ previously active become quiet, whilst pacified areas become stimulated. Using a brain imaging technique, Dr. Newberg and his team studied a group of Tibetan Buddhist monks as they meditated for approximately one hour. When they reached a transcendental high, they were asked to pull a kite string to their right, releasing an injection of a radioactive tracer. By injecting a tiny amount of radioactive marker into the bloodstream of a deep meditator, the scientists soon saw how the dye moved to active parts of the brain.
Later, once the subjects had finished meditating, the regions were imaged and the meditation state compared with the normal waking state. The scans provided remarkable clues about what goes on in the brain during meditation. "There was an increase in activity in the front part of the brain, the area that is activated when anyone focuses attention on a particular task," Dr Newberg explained. In addition, a notable decrease in activity in the back part of the brain, or parietal lobe, recognized as the area responsible for orientation, reinforced the general suggestion that meditation leads to a lack of spatial awareness.
Dr Newberg explained: "During meditation, people have a loss of the sense of self and frequently experience a sense of no space and time and that was exactly what we saw." The complex interaction between different areas of the brain also resembles the pattern of activity that occurs during other so-called spiritual or mystical experiences."
See here for some informative Q&A about Newberg’s work.
Experiential Awareness and Stage-Based Interpretation
In the subjective personal realm (UL), one’s state of consciousness, and particularly how one interprets those states can be discussed with regard to stages of psychological development, traumas (or complications in that developmental process), self-awareness, spiritual practices, education etc. Most significant here for me are the psychological, spiritual and cognitive lines of development.
I will go into the area of stages of development later, but as to spiritual practice, one of my favorite lines comes from New York Zen teacher Baker Roshi, who says “Enlightenment is an accident, but meditation makes you accident prone.”
In other words: the altered state of consciousness sought by the meditator and the stabilized stage of development in which that state is integrated are not guaranteed by meditation – but meditation does set up the conditions within which that process can occur.
Even more than meditation, we see an ever growing interest in yoga practice, especially because of the positive state change that it creates. While most beginning meditators have a good few years of difficult, boring, frustrating and confronting mental excercise ahead of them before states like the one's Newberg is describing start showing up for more than 5 or 10 seconds at a time, yoga is more predictable more quickly, given the specific stimulation and soothing of the nervous system, glands and brain and the circulatory effects of the physical practice.
I would argue that with specific regard to states of consciousness the UL and UR (or subjective awareness and objective biochemistry )are in an interwoven relationship that is almost impossible to separate. The changes in state that yoga and meditation produce are clearly rooted in physiological processes that involve glandular activity, the nervous system, areas of the brain etc – those processes depend upon an exercising of awareness that trains one in generating the physiological activities that drive the state change via either movement, breath, posture and intention/concentration.
Gopi Krishna’s famous initiation into kundalini is a perfect example. This was an ordinary man practicing meditation without a teacher who happened upon a powerful and harrowing experience of his own UR/UL relationship that led him to the conclusion that there is a biopsychic evolutionary principle dormant in the body. For more see his eloquent and powerful account in the classic Kundalini The Evolutionary Energy in Man.
(Please note that whenever I recommend this book I do so with a disclaimer that will follow further down the page. )
Here in the meantime is a short introduction to Krishna, as well as video of an excellent interview with him. It's worth your while to watch this and perhaps have it open in another window as you keep reading....
Regarding the UR/UL relationship, this line from the interview particularly stands out “Yoga was developed in India to make experiments on the brain.”
A man after Dr. Newberg’s own heart!
Mythic and Cultural Interpretive Overlay
Now on to the cultural context (LL) within which states of conscious arise, are conditioned and interpreted. Of course, both the UL&UR factors described above emerge (or fail to emerge) and are made sense of within a cultural (LL) framework. States of consciousness that are universally possible in human beings will be given very different kinds of support or repression, training and interpretation depending on the society in which they are experienced. It is an individual of rare brilliance, disposition and self-realized insight that can step back from their own cultural framework and see their spiritual/altered state experience on it's own terms and as something ultimately transcendent of that framework.
Notice how Gopi Krishna, whose defining experience happened in 1937, has an absolute clarity about the universally human nature of the revelations that arose for him. He expresses in the interview a (way ahead of his time) multi-cultural inclusivity, but we do still also hear his underlying Vedic philosophy and metaphysics.
Principle One: Consciousness and Physiology are Deeper (More Universal) to the Human Condition than Cultural Differences.
In support of the above principle, see this remarkable article by researcher, yogi, professor and psychotherapist, Dr. Stuart Sovatsky on the cross-cultural similars to Kundalini in which he notes that:
“Kundalini/pranic awakening and its cross-tradition similars—the spontaneous spinal rockings known in Judaism as davening and in Sufisim as zikr; the "taken-over" gyrations of gospel "holy ghost" shaking and dancing and charismatic/pentacostal "mani-festations"; the Dionysian "revel"; Quakerism’s and Shakerism's autonomic quaking and shaking; Tai Chi guided by chi itself; the shamanic trance-dance; Buddhism’s and Raja-Yoga’s effortless "straight back" (uju-kaya) meditation; the yogically derived ecstatic belly-dance and Flamenco; and even the full-bodied, spontaneous Reichian "reflex"—literally embody the spiritual path.”
Sovatsy too is pointing out the innate/endogenous nature of transformational processes in the mind-body matrix.
Social Infrastructure
Lastly (and mostly for symmetry’s sake) I will mention the LR quadrant. Suffice it to say that in the West we have almost no social infrastructure, religious or psychological for understanding and interpreting altered states. Religion has mostly become the domain of belief – with little room for direct experience and introspective/psychophysical practices of the sort that engage initiatory energetic experiences. Psychology with regard to altered states remains mostly the domain of psychiatric intervention and homogenization of consciousness. Notable exceptions are the budding yoga/ecstatic dance/meditation communities – they are doing good work, but there is a lot more to be done with regard to initiating, integrating and contextualizing authentic, discerning stage-wise growth.
I would however be seriously remiss not to mention the work of Stuart Sovastky, Lee Sannella and Stan Grof in creating clinical resources for those going through intense psychophysical (kundalini) process. See here for some interesting info on that...
What seems most important in the creation of intelligent and supportive LR infrastructure/institutions is an integration of both the mind-body spiritual/energetic awareness of what may be occurring for the individual and it’s possible value – as well as the cold-eyed realism of DSM-based psychological assessment. After all, in the words of Meister Eckhart “ The madman is drowning in the same waters that the Holy man swims in…”
In other words a good starting point is this: all kundalini is not psychosis and all mental illness is not kundalini.
Bless This Dragon and All Who Ride Her
So what is Kundalini?
Well I want to begin by putting this word where I feel it belongs. In India, Kundalini is the name of a mythic serpent goddess, said to reside at the base of the spine – to be awakened from her slumber by yogic practice or spiritual grace. On awakening she moves through the chakras, or major energy centers of the body, cleansing them of physical and emotional blocks and initiating a powerful psycho-spiritual awareness process.
I think it is very important to bear in mind that “kundalini” is one culture-bound signifier for an experience that transcends culture. Also we should bear in mind that mythic symbols always lose a great deal of their potency when interpreted literally – especially with any kind of exotic idealized projection of magic onto another culture or time.
The experience signified by the word “kundalini” – as pre-eminent scholar on the subject , Stuart Sovatsy indicates above, is common to many cultures and goes by many names.
Principle Two: Names and Beliefs are Always Secondary to Practice and Direct Initiatory Experience.
In my own study, personal experience and clinical practice, I have observed phenomena that have led me to the conclusion that the serpentine imagery invoked by both the Kundalini mythology and the caduceus/Hermetic symbology refers to an innate physical process in which the body makes spontaneous movements that :
a) at their most basic level of expression release tension and stress,
b) as they are expressed more deeply bring deeply held emotions to the surface, and
c) as the stress, trauma and conflict get processed ultimately express as an ecstatic and pleasurable full-bodied fluid aliveness.
These movements are called “kriyas” in the yogic tradition, the “reflex” or the “orgasm reflex” in Reichian body-based psychology, “unwinding” in Craniosacral therapy, and are said to relate to “primary process” in Primal Therapy. They are also seen in Network Chiropractic, Shiatsu, Ecstatic Dance and Holotropic Breathwork. The Kalahari Bushmen in Southern Africa have an all-night dance ritual in which certain participants will begin to shake and experience a burning in their spine which they will then be able to share with others in the group via a healing laying on of hands.
The awakening of energy and softening of what Reich called the "body armor" or chronic muscular tensions has implications for every aspect of our psychological and physical functioning - instinctive, sexual, emotional, creative, spiritual etc...
My perspective is that the UL experience signfied by the words chakra, shushumna and kundalini respectively have UR correlates in the nerve plexi that branch off the spinal chord, the dural tissue that surrounds the brain and spinal cord, and the biopscyhic life force energy that is running body and mind.
The video that follows down the page will illustrate how I interact with this reality on a daily basis. What you will not see is the powerful opening into the unconscious and the ensuing psychospiritual process that can also emerge.
Somatic Experiencing creator Peter Levine is a Phd. Biologist who has done fascinating research on the way animals release intense nervous system activation after life-threatening situations by laying down and surrendering to full-bodied release that looks like they are just vigorously “shaking it off” but when the videotape is slowed down it reveals sequences of movement that look like running and biting, fleeing and fighting. The nervous and glandular energy aroused to sustain the threat to survival has been discharged. Levine also teaches that a natural nervous system homeostasis that cycles between tension and release, resource and trauma can be re-accessed and utilized to allow managable and integratable processing of unresolved intense stress that still lurks in our physiology.
So breath, touch, movement, emotional process, all can serve as an entry point into this altered state in which the mind-body system processes, releases, re-enlivens and rebalances itself. In my work I use yoga, dance, breathwork and hands-on bodywork as doorways into this powerful process. The novel and revelatory experience of energy can serve as a resource, as can elements like touch, breath, sensation, music, trust etc...
To learn more about my work see my 8 CD set of lectures and experiential classes: Radical Transformation: A Map to Mind-Body Ecstasy.
To experience my work come on an Open Sky Retreat. There's one coming up in October!
In the video below, I, and some close friends from my bodywork and yoga world use breath and touch to release stress and tension – and enter an ecstatic state. In a more formal healing session this work would go on longer and start to access both emotional process and physical structural shifts. Music at the end is by my friend Jesse Hozney from his CD Music for mass Transit. Unfortunately can't find info on the main track - let me know iof you recognize it....
Open Sky Bodywork
If you haven’t seen energetic process like this before, it will usually bump right up against the cultural taboos we all carry- taboos about the body, vulnerability, touch and sexuality. Think of the images you are seeing as illustrating the awakening of an embodied ecstatic state of consciousness that is not limited by the shame that those taboos enforce. We are conditioned to live in a very limited framework that does not allow for very much emotional honesty, pleasure, open-ness or vulnerability – and yet it is in the discovery and development of our capacity for precisely those things that we become more fully ourselves and that we awaken to authentic and grounded spirituality.
I would hazard a guess that it is this kind of ecstatic group ritual space that the Christians in ancient Europe (and wherever else they colonized) were so offended by and branded as Satanic or related to witchcraft. In the article above Sovatsky mentions both the pre-Patanjali ecstatic Tantras of ancient India as well as the Dionysian revels of ancient Greece. It should however be noted that the naturally occurrance of energetic process in ancient cultures does not mean that their interpretation or integration benefited from the contemporary perspectives (Integral analysis, mind-body integration, depth psychology, modern science, postmodern insights etc..) we can now bring to bear! The way lies ahead, not behind us...
Breathwork
My initial experiences of energetic unwinding/kundalini came through Holotropic Breathwork, an experiential therapy that involves deep sustained breathing, pre-programmed evocative music and the occasional application of physical bodywork techniques.
The work (like any truly effective practice or therapy) softens the barrier between the conscious and the unconscious mind, and allows physical tensions, repressed emotions, memories, longings and insights to emerge into awareness and be processed in an experiential, embodied way. It produces a profoundly altered state of consciousness in which instinctive animalistic body states, infantile and childhood memories and feelings, unacknowledged truths and deeply spiritual capacities can and do all arise. As this process unfolds it is standard to go through the unwinding/kundalini processes I have been describing.
Entheogens
One of the most striking, perplexing and undeniable stimuli toward altered states has to be psychedelic or entheogenic sacraments.
For the sake of brevity, this piece of writing can only gesture toward all the different reference points I am wanting to establish, so for now I will just say that the use of plant medicines that produce altered states is something that anthropologists have found to be ubiquitous and widespread, from Mesoamerica to Africa to India to Ancient Greece, to Egypt and Sumeria, to the Amazon Rainforest to Mexico to Siberia. For more on this a good starting point is the book Persephone’s Quest by R. Gordon Wasson et al.
There is considerable evidence and highly educated guesswork that suggests that humanity’s interactions with potent psychoactive plants and fungi may have played a major part not only in the development of culture, mythology and spirituality/religion, but also in evolution itself. For more on this see references in Joseph Campbell as well as the more explicit work of ethnobotanist Terrence McKenna and writers like James Arthur, Daniel Merkur, Robert Forte and pre-eminent scholar of world religion Huston Smith.
Stan Grof – called by Ken Wilber the world’s greatest living psychologist, spent his early years doing extensive clinical research on the psycho-spiritual implications of altered states and specifically of the information revealed via psychedelics. He later developed Holotropic Breathwork as an alternative approach when psychedelics were outlawed.
Integration
Personally, seeking out and then learning how to integrate altered states has been a central thread in my life story as an adult. From early experiences with psychedelics (like Jack Kornfield, Stan Grof, Ram Das and most of my counter-culture spiritual heroes) to meditation retreats, psychotherapy, bodywork, holotropic breathwork and yoga, I have found that altered states present two very difficult problems with regard to integration:
Principle Three: States and Stages Are Not the Same Thing.
In the altered state the barrier between the conscious and the unconscious mind becomes more permeable – creativity blossoms, mythic archetypes emerge, long hidden emotions and memories arise and potential spiritual capacities like compassion, insight, and equanimity may be experienced.
See Stan Grof for more on this, but also Abraham Maslow, particularly his idea of “self-actualizers “ who guide their lives by their “peak experiences.”
What Transpersonal Psychology has grown to understand in the last 40 years is that entry into a peak altered state, while convincing and authentic at the time is not the equivalent of having reached the stage of development to which the state is alluding.
In other words a vision of the mountain top doesn’t mean you don’t still have to start climbing from the bottom when the vision fades...
Principle Four: While Altered States are Available to Everyone Regardless of their Stage of Development, One’s Interpretation of the Altered State will be Entirely Dependent on One’s Psychograph (or combined developmental profile.)
In other words: One’s general stage of development will determine how one interprets the altered state once they are back in their steady state. So the same experiential territory might be interpreted completely differently by someone with a literalist faith in mythic religion, as opposed to someone who has done a lot of psychological work, as opposed to someone who is very invested in New Age metaphysics, or someone who has a background in Adveita Vedanta. The tricky part is that because the (primary) altered state is so convincing, our (secondary) interpretive lens will be lent an often unwarranted authority….
This is a very difficult trap to side-step - and then proceed with as grounded and accurate an interpretation as is possible...
So integration has to include perhaps both the attempt to step back and look at the experience with some degree of objectivity, as well as consulting with guides or “community of the adequate” members whom we trust and respect. This will help put altered state work squarely in the necessary "three strands of science realm."
Integration, as well as even being able to manage altered states is also a function of something I call the “trauma/resource ratio.” Each of us has a different ratio between overwhelming traumatic occurrences and resources that support groundedness, self-esteem, compassion, courage etc…This is not something we choose but is the product of the complex relationships between genetics, life experience, childhood, gifts and abilities we have been able to develop etc… The trauma/resource ration will determine how well we are able to manage and integrate altered states of consciousness and energetic process.
Difficulty in managing and/or integrating altered states and energetic process can show up as:
* Ungroundedness or Dissociation
* Regressive Worldview/Belief System
* Overwhelming/Out of Control Physiological Symptoms
* Psychotic Delusions
* Extreme Narcissistic Inflation
* Obsessive Chasing of the Peak State
* Rationalization/Denial of Reality in Favor of "Other Realms"
* PTSD
* Complete Lack of Self-Care Resources
(Sidenote: Cults and toxic Gurus rely on these elements to keep people disempowered and "hooked in".)
Although we do not choose the trauma/resource ratio we start with, we can choose to become authentically aware of our situation and do the crucial work to cultivate resources while finding safe spaces to process trauma. At various stages in one's cycle it is often neccessary to step away from practices that evoke energetic proces and/or altered states and spend some time doing the crucial but unglamorous work of grounding, soothing, re-orienting and integrating.
In Closing
I said earlier that I always recommended Gopi Krishna's classic book on Kundalini with a disclaimer/caveat. the reason for this is that Krishn'as experience as recounted in the book is terrifying and somewhat psychotic in places and I have my own theory regarding this aspect of the book.
My observations:
* He had no physical practice to keep him grounded and facilitate processing the powerful energy that was washing though him.
* (In predictably culturally influenced ways) He reveals a very puritanical attitude toward sexuality and
* A very stoic attitude toward emotions. ( So neither his sexuality nor his emotions were outlets for expression, release and relief - they were held in dualistic regard as not being sacred or part of the process. Danger!)
* He felt he had to hide his experience from others. ( A set-up for deepening alienation and paranoia.)
* He had no guidance and no community.
This is a perfect set-up for a pretty bumpy ride. Lots of repression and very little resource - his journey really is very traumatic. That said it is still an eloquent and powerful account of energetic initiation and deep self-realization.
In contrast and by way of conclusion i want to reiterate that energetic process and altered states are powerful, universal human experiences that can, under the right conditions, be utilized responsibly, beautifully and in ways that create not only exciting experiences but also genuine stage-wise growth. This possibility is well-served by:
* An Integral 4 quadrant framework.
* Active cultivation of resource.
* Safe space for processing trauma.
* Responsble, knowledgable and experienced teachers/guides/healers
* Transformational community
* Physical practices that move energy.
* Shadow work that allows for deep emotional process.
* Three strands of science type methodology.
* Continuing education and practice.
These combine well with the four principles I suggested through the piece, and which I will reiterate here:
* Consciousness and Physiology are Deeper (More Universal) to the Human Condition than Cultural Differences.
* Names and Beliefs are Always Secondary to Practice and Direct Initiatory Experience.
* States and Stages Are Not the Same Thing.
* While Altered States are Available to Everyone Regardless of their Stage of Development, One’s Interpretation of the Altered State will be Entirely Dependent on One’s Psychograph.
Thanks for your time!
Namaste
~Julian
Here is the second article for Z2 - by Delia!
Third in line Christiana
Fourth up - Michael
Sarah's piece
Daate's Contribution
Jim Wraps it Up
Reading/Media List:
As listed above, my CD set Radical Transformation: A Map to Mind-Body Ecstasy
Kundalini: The Evolutionary Energy in Man Gopi Krishna
Peter Levine Waking The Tiger
Ken Wilber Collected Works Volume Four: Integral Psychology & Transformations of Consciousnesss
Stan and Christina Grof The Stormy Search for the Self
Alexander Lowen Bioenergetics
Donald Kalsched The Inner World of Trauma
Access: PublicTagged with: julian walker, ken wilber, stan grof, stuart sovatsky, kundalini, zymposium, zaadz, energy, open sky, bodywork, dance, yoga, retreats, the secret, steve pavlina, pan's labyrinth, the fountain, new age, spirituality, psychology, transpersonal, joseph campbell, psychedelics, entheogens, huston smith, four quadrants
AAAAArrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhh! My 1 hour response just got et by the computer gremlins. Phooey! Phooey! Phooey!!!!!!
I gotta take a break.
Thanks Julian so much for this thread.
Now I know to cut and paste.
coyote - that sucks! start again when you are over the frustration. i would love to hear your one hour response!
picture me yesterday at 3 pm losing the entire editing sequence i had spent 2 hrs creating for my video when my imovie porogram crashed the computer…..
thankfully i still had the clips, but it was really like starting from square two - when i was just about finished and about to add the music as my final touch!
i am a bit speechless as now, just from watching the video, i am finding myself in an altered state…thank you all for that…its amazing how that kind of energy can trigger someone just by watching it…what powerful work you do!
i suppose that i would like to hear more of the trauma/resource ratio…i find myself with little trauma, yet the resource i have seems to be fleeting and a bit inadequate to really support me or ground me in times of an overwelming kundalini expereince…when its hard to find the eye of that storm do you have any good suggestions?…
all in all, i find this a great and educational piece…but would love to have heard more of your own personal experience with how you found the way toward a smoother ride on this dragon…
look forward to seeing more responses from others as well…
love and grace…S.
i echo that miss sa'rah! beautiful beautiful work julian, thanks so much for the video, i'm beginning to understand the work a little better now. and thanks so much for setting up the framework for all this by introducing it with biophysical info…..and yeah, i would have liked to hear more about your personal ride too. my piece is deeply personal (and actually i'm grateful that yours was so educational because now it probably gives the rest of us room to be more personal) but still…..any way you could relate a personal experience?
sa'rah i'll probably go into the trauma/resource ratio in my own way….the best resource i've found is art (one that you already have) but mostly grounded somatic awareness when it comes to this stuff….
Julian
Thanks for your richly meaningful post. I have a comment about your principles relating states to stages. It’s that conscious awareness matters most in human life, and a countercultural emphasis on altered states reflects, in part, a socially degraded sense of what conscious awareness can be. This gets us into the realm of psychographic stages.
William James writing a century ago was, with Picasso, Einstein, Henry Adams and so many others, ushering in a modernism that broke apart the coherence (however false) of Western rationalism. Your conditioning “to live in a very limited framework that does not allow for much emotional honesty, pleasure, open-ness or vulnerability” had much more authority in 1907 than it does now. Today it’s a pop-culture conditioning, while those of us who’ve peeled off from pop culture know that we live in a wasteland… and it’s one that just gets stranger and arguably bleaker. I’m referring to the “I” and the “we” in our exterior circumstances.
My point is that the counterculture emphasis on altered states can be an effort to enrich conscious awareness, but it can also be an effort to escape the harshness of daily life via “I” or “we” interiority. To the degree that the latter is true, a focus on altered states is to cede the exterior world to a rational materialism that is entirely mechanical now—it offers no meaning, but it keeps running. From an ecological vantage, this changes nothing and passes nothing on.
If, though, we intend altered state experiences to enrich conscious awareness, in part to help us grapple with our exterior life, then a psychographic engagement with consciousness should frame our yoga and LSD trips and meditations. What do we alter? I would argue that it is reason, a gift of Western prophecy and art, which takes the mind and the heart, intellect and feeling, and unites them in a kind of piano keyboard that has an immense expressive range. There were Dionysian ecstatics in Greece, but there were also artists who, using reason, wove these ecstatics into the new speech forms of tragedy and comedy.
Those who dismiss or devalue reason, normal consciousness, mistaking it for the materialist clutter they know, are not, I believe, doing all their shadow work.
sa'Rah - added some stuff in the last 20 minutes to the last 1/3rd of the piece above that might be interesting/useful.
in addition:
* organ cleansing (especially the liver/gallbladder/colon/kidneys
* adrenal support
* B vitamins
also do a search on jana dixon kundalini - she has done interesting research into the biology of kundalini and good supplementation that i have yet to check out in depth - she's also a wilberhead…
* practice slowing down and excercising a gradual valve-like relationshyip to the energy so it's not all the way off or all the way on - or in your case 80% on or 280% on! :O)
* find still points to rest in
in purely physicological terms i would argue there is a trauma response in your body - but more on that in person.
ok…i hear ya on the trauma response…might have been a little bit of denial in my first comment…hehe…i've got some blood chemistry that could, um, probably still use some cleansing…
i will have to spend more time looking into jana dixon's info, but already i can see she has a lot of information that could be incredibly helpful, so thank you for that lead…
working on the valve…i am finding that some breathwork i am doing called Somatic-Respiratory Integration (par tof Network Chiro philosophy, i believe)…is getting me in practice with that…giving me a feeling of a bit more connection and direction with the energy without being completely swallowed by it…its a slow process though…
as far as still points to rest in…it is hard to maintain and continue breathing at the same time…the breath alone pops me off, so the still point is like holding my breath and feels very inauthentic…any suggestions?
daate and sarah - thanks for pointing that out - i got so caught up in the perspectives/info i wanted to share and in creating a broad context for the event that it felt like going into the personal stuff would turn this into a chapter rather than an article!
so here goes (in summary):
* i come from a traumatizing background - police state south africa in the 70's and 80's, violent neighbourhood, chaotic family life.
* i began meditating at 15, yoga at 19 and had a series of very important psychedelic experiences at 18
* i experienced mild altered states as a kid that were spiritual and also dissociative in nature.
* always had a sense that there was something spiritual going on but that the framework that my christian school held it in was not “it” - even though i could feel uplifted by the services at times..
* from 18 - 24 i was chasing the transcendent peak experience: yoga, meditation, india, gurus, satsang etc
* that crashed and burned when i realized how much psychological denial i was in and how i was using spirituality tyo avoid my deep feelings.
* went into therapy at 25 after beginning to read wilber (and have yet to stop with either..)
* studied with a brilliant but very, very traumatized yogi from 24 - 29 who emphasized intense mind-body process but was big into catharsis with (as i later understood) no palpable concept of resource. her community at the time was organized around the holt grail of repressed abuse memories - so i spent a couple years searching for and even thinking i had found mine - a couple convincing psychedelic experiences seemed to back this up, but with hindsight this was a blind allley - and that the situation was somewhat cultic and incredibly confusing.
* began ecstatic dance at 27 - this has served as a wonderful resource and process-space for me - as well as providing extraordinary post-conventional community.
* got into studying, developing and then teaching bodywork from a mind-body psychologically grounded perspective at around 27 after having been to massage school and studied for a few years with an unscrupulous energetic savant/bodywork teacher who was irresponsible with his power, pushed people too deep without resourcing them and paid lip service to psychology while operating on a very oversimplified “emotional release” model. quite a head trip - i almost have a support group of casualties from that scene…
* that said my work with him opened me up to an understanding/experience of energy and anatomy that i have seen nowhere else. my work with her is the foundation that my mind-body yoga stands on.
* found peter levine's work and began applying it to my own process and using it to flesh out the blindspots of both my yoga and bodywork mentors. also continued with wilber, grof, jung and people like kalsched….
* my 30's thus far have been about integrating all of this intense experience and information and finding myself more stable, grounded, resourced, self-actualized than at any other time in my life. and of course there is still work to do….
hows that for a download?
:O)
Julian,
Just up, just reading. Impressed thus far with the scope and scholarship. Will get back after a closer read and morning duties.
Cheers,
MIchael
always love a bit of the personal to go with the transpersonal…thanks for sharing…and i am feeling that it is probably about time i look more into peter levine, so thank you for the reminder *…
lgd - thanks for that elloquent and beautiful statement. yum. :O)
sarah - good!
no don't hold your breath to try and find a still point - but breathe softly and look for a sense of being compassionately held, contained and safely boundaried - hang out in the pause between breaths for a couple seconds and notice the subtle details in your body that you may be missing….
matra: slow down…slow down….slow down…
you might think about booking a session with hala too… we did some great work on this up at esalen.
look into levine and also experience his work through hala! :O)
slow down?!?!?!?!…do what?!?!?!?!?
hehe.
the pause in between breaths seems to be so filled with sensation that the subtle details get lost…i suppose that is a great point to work from and observe how i relate more and more to the subtle sensations as this process continues…
good suggestions though…i'll give hala a call…
yea baby steps and new layers of awareness
Julian and Zaadzmposiumers,
2nd try.
Thank you Julian for this thoughtful post. I appreciate having this scaffolding for organizing thoughts and experiences of the other posters. As I was reading, I noticed how much my own path and studies have followed a somewhat similar track. I enjoyed the Open Sky Video very much. Do you use music when doing sessions? Or is it mostly breath and bodywork? Do you encourage the client to give voice to certain emotions, as in psycho-drama or deep memory process? Ah, I can tell I’ll have to buy the 8 CD set. Consider it on my list.
What I will do now is outline my own path of study and experience and then reflect on how that has impacted my understanding of kundalini. If I can find it I’ll include an excerpt from a talk by my teacher Adyashanti.
So some personal bio/experiences:
I grew up in an alcoholic family on the south coast of California. I went to a prep school back east and was there when my parents decided to divorce. I never fully processed that fracture of my world at the time. I did some psychedelics. Timothy Leary was a local resident for a time. I loved LSD but it contributed to my nickname of “Spaceman”. My senior year in high school I picked up a book by Jess Stearns called Yoga, Youth and Reincarnation and tried to teach myself hatha yoga from its pages _without a lot of discipline.
After some travel I studied kundalini yoga with a teacher trained by Yogi Bhajan. My sister was a devotee of his but I could never make the leap to the Turban and white costume.
I moved to Maine, met my future wife and learned woodworking. We raised a couple of children (now 22,24) on 10 acres in rural Freeport. In my late forties I felt my life was getting stale and I signed up for a traditional 4 day vision quest with a man called Sparrow Hart. I continued to do work with him in addition to questing and was introduced to breathwork.
The breathwork was part of a 9 month (1 weekend per month) series of workshops called the Mythic Warrior. I think it was the 4th weekend that had the breathwork sessions. I went into the room expecting candles, cushions and the chance to do some alternate nostril breathing. I had no expectations or context for what was about to happen. The space was a slightly re-habbed chicken coop in rural Massachusetts. I didn’t realize that BW was done in pairs so the last man left was someone who had just been released from 30 days of treatment for sex addiction and peeping Tomism. He was a little creepy. I breathed first. I don’t remember a lot of the details. I got tetne in both hands. I got very altered and was amazed and blown away by the style of music which I had never heard before. When it was my turn to be the ‘sitter’ my breather told me not to worry about it, that he seldom moved very much or needed much facilitation. Well, he moved a lot. He moved for the whole 2.5 hours. He wanted to be held like a baby. At one point he stood up and wanted to dance. Here I was a typical Yankee frozen white guy and this little pervert was holding me in his arms. I mean every button that could be pushed got pushed. Apparently it was just what the doctor ordered. While I can’t say that I enjoyed the experience, I was fascinated by it. I loved hearing of other peoples journeys when we shared in circle.
I did some more breathwork as part of a Richard Moss 10 day seminar. What I loved about it was the power of the experience completely overwhelmed any doubt or skepticism. I could allow myself to simply be present to the experience and set my skepticism aside. That snide little voice that liked to say “ You’re just making this stuff up” when doing group exercises was silenced by the breathwork. At one point I had to go to the bathroom and as I urinated I looked down and my shrunken genitals felt like they were connected to a low voltage battery. My whole body was humming with energy but it was localized in specific locations. At some point I realized that I was having a direct experience of my own chakras. BTW, it is my conviction that most breathwork is about the healing and revealing of charkas 1,2 &3. Other chakras may get activated from time to time but for most people the work is in the body and on this earth.
This experience called me to study breathwork directly. I went on the internet and checked out various sites. When I got here I had a distinct sense of recognition and rightness. It was a physical ‘ping’ that rang true. Over the next two years I got certified in Integrative Breathwork. I found the organization to be problematic. It was a case of “the brighter the light, the darker the shadow. “ The woman who started this style of breathwork had studied and taught with Grof in the 80s and 90s. When she split to start her own group there was lots of drama. 'nuff said.
I enjoyed my time with this group. It was not until after I left that things got messy and weird. Breathwork has the potential to put you into that space of lovingness. It is very easy to confuse being in that space of lovingness with being in love. Very easy. There was not a lot of clarity around that at the time. Boundaries were crossed. Shame was distributed.
I continued to practice breathwork here in New England. Looking for some community I found this man
who had been involved with Transformational Breathwork but had decided to go out on his own. I continue to work with him and consider him a good friend.
So how to integrate all these experiences, dramas , energies and insights? Slowly, slowly, slowly. I became very depressed. I entered therapy and that was very useful. My therapist suggested a 12 step meeting and that has been wonderful. While I initially had problems with the amber/blue language and all the God the Father talk, I have since learned to let that slide and simply enjoy the community and friendships. I think that addiction is often a part of the kundalini process.
Finally, I am hesitant to include this but I must. I had my world turned upside down in the past week. A symptom prompted a CAT scan which revealed a mass on my kidney. Fortunately it does not appear to have metastasized but I go in for surgery to have my left kidney removed on 8/13. Oh well, I just have to remember I create my own reality…:-)
I am a strong vital man. I do Baptiste power yoga 5 days a week. I lift. I walk. I laugh. I breathe. I have no symptoms of cancer at all and yet there it is. I was carrying a great deal of fear around the whole process because I lost my sister to cancer one year ago. For her it was only 5 months from discovery of the cancer to her death. Our interactions with the conventional medical world were not very pleasant. It was not until I went over the CAT scan with a specialist that I realized how much of my sister's story I had internalized and made my own. It certainly caused me to appreciate my life and this precious human body.
namaste,
coyote
excellent article, julian! i appreciate you adding your personal process that brought you to this point. seems we often need to be reminded that things develop over time, not just going to find that quick fix.
the trauma/resource ratio and titration process have been amazing additions to your work. i don't recall you mentioning them say 3 years ago. then again at that point i probably wasn't ready to deal with the trauma. it has come to me when i needed to hear it most.
having teachers and therapists who understsand the work being done on the mat, table, and couch is priceless. i often overlooked how much i'd integrated in my life through this process thinking there is somewhere else i was supposed to get to. this summer, i'm hearing loud and clear that here is where i am supposed to be.
sarah, i'm with you in the slow down space. hala's work at esalen and levine's book have been fantastic tools for me. highly recommend both.
any breathwork workshsops in the future? ;o)
yes annie it has been gradual - but i have actually been using the titration process via resourcing and slowing down the trauma response since about 2002 without explicitly calling it that…
geting a taste of it in more depth at the esalen training must have been the clincher for you - i am so glad!
Hi Julian,
Do you know of any additional discussions or resources on Network? This has been a part of my process for a while and I have been looking for additional dialogs/information.
Great job and thanks for posting and gathering folks together!
coyoteyogi - thanks so much - what a journey eh?
thank you too for sharing your recent news - how harrowing. may it pass through you quickly…
annie - maat and i have been talking about doing another breathwork day-long - like i need something to do with my time!
you as always will be the first to know…..
:O)
gina - you know, i dont have any idea of resources, books, philosophy or discussion about network - i experienced it several times about 12 years a go and only understood it later in terms of other energy modalities.
i think looking into osteopathy and craniosacral therapy will give you comparable theory and physiology though….
Hi Julian, Excellent survey of the topic! (I haven't watched the video yet and will do so later.)
For those who might be interested, the early edition of Gopi Krishna's book Kundalini: The Evolutionary Energy in Man, with commentary by James Hillman (the Jungian analyst turned “archetypal” psychologist) is online.
Just a comment on trauma: I would say that everyone has been traumatized regardless of their personal family history, e.g., regardless of whether they've had a happy childhood and regardless of whether or not they can identify with being traumatized. First there is the trauma of birth, the shock of a raw nervous system abruptly exposed to overwhelming intensity to which it must adjust if it is to survive.
Then there is the trauma of what the psyciatrist Robert Jay Lifton and the Buddhist scholar and systems theorist Joanna Macy speak of in terms of our collective knowledge that Macy characterizes as ”the loss of the assumption that our species will pull through.” Lifton relates the “search for immortality” common among religious and spiritual seekers directly to the terror and despair of living in an age of “the Bomb” and nuclear proliferation, ecological degradation, death camps, holocausts, genocidal madness, terrorism (state terrorism and terrorism perpetrated by transnational agents), wars for oil and territory, “collateral damage” kept out of sight and out of mind, etc.
In response to collectively shared traumatizing events (in other words, not just personal history), Lifton suggests that become prey to what he calls “psychic numbing.” He explains how “historical forces” can produce the reaction of “the closing off of the person and the constriction of the life process. It can take the form of widespread psychic numbing–diminished capacity or inclination to feel–and a general sense of stasis and meaninglessness.” I think there is thus a sense in which the kinds of breakthroughs and openings we are talking about here are a response to our collective situation, as well as our personal situations, and to the phenomenon of “widespread psychic numbing.”
Again, wonderful essay you've written to start this discussion off with, Julian. Thanks for all your efforts on this here!
Jim
excellent additions jim!
good to see you.
i look forward to your reflections on the video….
Very comprehensive, Julian!
A great starter post to the syposium! :)
Your video reminds me of what we call “kriyas” in my meditation tradition. They are very pleasant, yet can be so surprising when they arrive for the first time. (aka. upward flowing orgasms) :)
Wanted to ask you about something from your post:
In other words: One’s general stage of development will determine how one interprets the altered state once they are back in their steady state. So the same experiential territory might be interpreted completely differently by someone with a literalist faith in mythic religion, as opposed to someone who has done a lot of psychological work, as opposed to someone who is very invested in New Age metaphysics, or someone who has a background in Adveita Vedanta. The tricky part is that because the (primary) altered state is so convincing, our (secondary) interpretive lens will be lent an often unwarranted authority…
J, when you mention an altered state vs. a steady state, it sounds as though you are making the assumption that the steady state is the state prior to the altered state. Is that correct?
I read what you wrote to mean that we somehow return unphased by our experience. I feel that in a genuine spiritual emergence (eg. Kundalini), we are transformed. And though we may find a new steady state. There is no going back to “Kansas.”
With each new “altered,” or I preferred “expanded” state, our steady state alters as well. Both altered and steady are dynamic. Both are transformed.
What is “ground” changes and evolves with each transforming experience.
Therefore, I feel that it is of crucial importance to realize this condition when studying one's “expanded/altered” state in order to draw conclusions.
Some “altered” states have little effect or bearing on our steady state. Some have profound, definite and permanent effects. There is a continuum, I feel, to these kinds of experiences.
I agree with Gopi Krishna (more on him tomorrow in my post!) that the best way to study spiritual emergence (eg. Kundalini), is to study it indirectly by observing the lasting effects it has on its subjects. As we note the changes/effects within or on ourselves, we can see the power and potential of this energy.
We cannot see certain celestial objects. We can study them, however, through the effects they have on gravitational pull, orbits, etc.
This type of study then requires 3 entities:
1. The energy (Kundalini)
2. The subject (aspirant/experiencer)
3. Observer
This gets tricky if the observer is awakened…and also if they are not awakened. Either way, the observer will embody one OR the other of 2 kinds of steady states.
What think ye?
:)
yup i call them kriyas too sometimes - that's what they are. :O)
should be a juicy post delia!
good points. very well expressed as always.
i think in the vast majority of instances people experiencing altered states have a temporary shift out opf their steady state which is pretty consistent viz their psychograph/stage of development. the subjective impression is of radical new-ness and transformed identity (which is fascinating!) but objective observation appears not to bear that out over time.
actual stagewise transformation is a really big deal and the data from transpersonal psychology indicates that states and stages need to be very clearly differentiated to make sense of these phenomena.
that said really potent altered states can leave a powerful impression of having been transformed, especially over the period of a couple months following the state change - and then there are those experiences after which one actually is totally transformed in quantifiable ways - which are exceedingly rare. many people on psychedelics for example may fear that they will never “come back,” and/or attempt to stay in the altered state or stay in contact with the profound truths they appeared to be accessing (which are state specific and usually have faded signifcantly once the state has passed) - one's psychograph/chemistry/homeostasis/brain activity has a way of returning to center in the vast majority of cases - i would guess around 99.9%
the same is true of the powerful altered states entered via breathwork and bodywork - in fact one of the things i say to reassure people who are in an intense place or experiencing something very new is that it will pass - and the only time that has not been true in my experience (we're in the 0.01% range again here) has been in the case of pre-existing psychiatric conditions. after one experience of this early on i became very very cautious about the screening proces for bodywork and breathwork - and even with yoga an experience a couple years ago reminded me that people who for example suffer from bipolar disorder should not be doing energetic disicplines…
i think that all healing and personal growth occurs within the framework of homeostasis - wether we are conscious of it or not…
the actual pattern for the vast majority of serious seekers appears to be gradual growth over long periods punctuated by altered states that give glimpses into more advanced stages but that are to some extent usually misinterpreted based on the psychograph and cultural contrext of the experiencer.
does that make sense?
i think the confusion of states with stages and levels with lines is a big part of the guru debacle that happened here in the 70's and 80's. ya know?
…and then there are those experiences after which one actually is totally transformed in quantifiable ways…
let's suppose for the sake of discussion that one of those—the quantifiable types—exists…and you know them.
what type of changes would qualify as quantifiable, J?
before: no extra-sensorial phenomena
after: ongoing and continuous extra-sensorial phenomena
(eg. the type Gopi Krishna, Muktananda or Yogananda describe in their autobiographies)
therefore the steady state inclusive of the extra-sensorial phenomena might be a bit skewed from the typical observer who is sans extra-sensorial phenomena, etc.
now i don't necessarily feel that this qualifies as getting a “whole new identity.” (I too find that concept fascinating, J!)
yet, the person would be transformed in a complete sense…no return to former steady state…will have to develop a new steady state that is inclusive of said transformations
again, all these changes may be very subtle like thread worked into the weave of a person's life. yet it is still there. and the cloth is no longer the same.
one's psychograph/chemistry/homeostasis/brain activity has a way of returning to center in the vast majority of cases - i would guess around 99.9%
will you define psychograph for me? want to make sure we're on the same page with that one. thx. :)
also, i agree that the brain activity has a way of returning to “center” whatever that was/is for the person…yet that's not exactly what i was alluding to in my earlier comment.
let me clarify:
i am talking about the transformation of personality.
people go to all kinds of self-help workshops, schools, retreats and so on in order to remodel their personality. this could be to augment out-moded judgments, belief systems, and traumas/hurts OR it could be to expand into new ways of behaving, viewing themselves, life and the world, or relating with themselves and others OR to do both simultaneously.
now, when people attend these self-help events they are going for the purposes of transformation. and i would say: transformation of personality.
kind of like re-constructive surgery for the little self.
for example, rhinoplasty helps some people with deviated septums breath a little easier at night. in the same way, developing a greater sense of forgiveness and acceptance in one's life can assist a person in feeling a lot less traumatized and reactive to new situations and relationships.
now if that person practices and really works at it OR has a transformative experience which changes how they view themselves and the world, they are likely to absorb that transformation (even if only a little bit) and in essence develop a whole new lens through which his/her steady state perceives experience. personality i equate with a lens.
i am guessing that right about now, you are saying to yourself, “I meant something completely different by steady state than that, Delia.” ;)
If that is the case, do please tell me what you mean by steady state. Want to get on the same page on that one, too. :)
Here's why.
No matter what, we usually interpret our experiences through whatever personality we are experiencing. Therefore, change the personality…change the interpretation (lens). Thus steady state perception changes as well…frequently sometimes.
thanks so much for the personal account julian—it makes me feel more confident about my own piece…..
i agree with the psychograph/gradual growth thing….very well put. will have to give a more in-depth response to delia's piece in a bit….or just wait till tomorrow.
;0
Julian,
(apologies, I first posted this to the intro dialogue)
“Our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the right stimulus, and at a touch they are there is all their completeness…
No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite disregarded. How to regard them is the question…”
I loved this quote from James and I especially appreciate that you started with it and emphasized his caveat, “How to regard them is the question …”
“…the right stimulus … the right touch …” It seems that you have taken this quite literally in your life, Julian and for that, at least, you deserve commendation.
Baker Roshi's comment ”Enlightenment is an accident, but meditation makes you accident prone.” seems to say something different than your interpretation, with which, frankly, I am more in agreement: “… are not guaranteed by meditation - but meditation does set up the conditions within which that process can occur.”
I utterly agree with you about the vitality of a yoga practice accompanying meditation. A person can no doubt meditate without doing yoga, but advanced meditation is dependent upon advanced posture and posture cannot be secured without yoga. Period. Kundalini, in the classic sense, resonates best in the well-tuned temple.
Julian, what you say below echoes back to times when I have recognized a part of you that I find most appealing - your willingness to see, like Eckhart below, that attitude, rather than ideology, is what really rules.
“What seems most important in the creation of intelligent and supportive LR infrastructure/institutions is an integration of both the mind-body spiritual/energetic awareness of what may be occurring for the individual and it's possible value - as well as the cold-eyed realism of DSM-based psychological assessment. After all, in the words of Meister Eckhart ” The madman is drowning in the same waters that the Holy man swims in…”
In other words a good starting point is this: all kundalini is not psychosis and all mental illness is not kundalini.” Amen in particular to this although some Kundalini in action looks like psychosis on parade.
That's it for now, more soon,
Yer pal,
Michael1) agreed that these sorts of complete irrevocable changes do happen - but in a tiny percentage of people. some of whom are in this group of presenters. the simple fact is that for 99.9% of the rest of people irrevocable immediate lasting changes do not happen via altered states.
that leads into the topic of how to understand/integrate what has happened and what may be the cause…..
2) i gave links to wilber stuff that included the term psychograph - but it may be a lot to dig through!
psychograph is an integral concept that acknowledges that we all have lines of development that are distinct but related - so some examples would be cognitive, psychological, aesthetic, spiritual etc…… not only is each individual at a stage in their development, but each line of development can be at a different stage from the others! we all know genius computer geeks who can't have a conversation about feelings, or amazing musicians who can't balance their checkbook - in the last 30 years we have also had to make sense in the spiritual community of spiritually gifted gurus who had no concept of ethics or psychological maturity ne c'est pas?
so one's psychograph is the sum total of one's lines of development in their various stages/levels and what that means as a portrait of the equipment (so to speak) through whcih you process your expereince - including altered states…
anyone can expereince an altered state - those are free. but turning the altered state into a permanent trait that is stabilized at a new stage of development - that requires a lot of work in 99.9% of cases.
3) yes people go to seminars/workshops etc for transformation of the eprsonality - and for the most part that transformation is a convincing altered state that doesn't last very long and doesn't significantly affect their center of gravity or the make-up of their psychograph.
positive effects may ensue and over time changes in the persona may show up - but the big experience is usually a very unreliable indicator of an actual big transformation.
4) by steady state i mean something along the lines of consensus reality - the walls are not melting, the person in front of you is not perceived as the fully radiant embodiment of the archetypal mother, ones body has not dissolved into sttreams of liquid light etc…
altered states aare so fascinating and so sought after/demonized because of the extreme novelty and differentness from “ordinary” or steady state experience.
while these things are indeed relative - there is actually not a great deal of substantive variation in how the vast majority of people with healthy hardware experience their senses on a day to day basis. in oither words 100 people may have 100 slightly diffferent perceptions - but they will 99.9% be within a fairly predictable range…..
this can be heightened in subtle but powerful ways - but it is in the full-blown altered state that a whole new world is radically revealed - because the volume has been so drastically increased, yeah?
to echo william james from above:
” No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite disregarded. How to regard them is the question…”
and therein lies the rub!
play on sister play on - i look forward to tomorrow….
and brother michael this is the expression of your online persona that i most enjoy too: gentlemanly, erudite, generous and open-minded.
thanks for the reflections!
1) agreed
2) & 3) this psychograph concept of wilber's is fabulous. i agree with the concept and the parallels you draw to specific examples. however, what i am able to garner so far from your above comment on psychographs is that there is little that can be done to alter them. is that accurate? not diligent effort or work? not profound altered/expanded states? not anything? please say more on this. :)
4) ah…i had a feeling you meant something completely different than my 1st interpretation as it refers to steady state. got it. consensus reality. yes. crucial to life on the planet as we know it. :)
…and yes, how to regard these other forms of consciousness…
the rub-a-dub-dub, indeed!
;)
3)
First off, great post Julian! I love your precision, sincerity, and the breadth of scholarship you bring to the discussion. Your detailed personal account and those of the others who contributed theirs were beautiful and touching. Thanks so much for sharing!
I'll try to respond to Delia's last post and her question about psychographs. The idea of the psychograph is based on Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligence where people can excel in some areas (or lines as Wilber calls them) but not as much in others. You absolutely can do work to grow in the various lines! It does, however, take a long time for vertical development with Robert Kegan, a professor of adult education at Harvad, suggesting that moving one stage can take around 5 years if you are really working at it. Wilber often states that meditation (specifically the work of Skip Alexander) is the only thing proven to help people move up to higher stages. Other things such as therapy, learning, etc. are critically important as well but their ability to single-handedly cause people advance in stages is unclear. Does that help clarify things for you?
I will add a bit more about the UL component of this phenomena through the work of Suzanne Cook-Greuter, a pre-eminent research in adult ego development (I believe this would correspond to the “psychological” line Julian referenced in his post). She has some really great papers available on her site too if you want more detail. I particularly liked the one on the 9 stages of ego development. Ego here refers to the mental model people use to make sense of reality. In this model, altered states often become more common during the “construct/aware” stage (stage 8), and then are a permanent reality in the “unitive” stage (stage 9 - the highest stage she was able to document). There is a LOT more to her model than what I am describing here, but her work points to an interesting set of interrelationship that occur at the highest stages of vertical development between those stages and different states. I am not disagreeing with what what Julian wrote earlier about the fundamental difference between states and stages, but there appears to be some interesting relationships happening at the highest stages of ego development that are not particularly well understood. Although Suzanne's model is quite robust, a challenge with a lot of developmental models is that there are so few subjects at the highest stages that it becomes hard to characterize the stages. This can sometimes unfortunately lead to the highest stage looking remarkably like that of the researcher making the model. Although this is a bit of a long post, I summarized a lot, so feel free to ask questions.
Julian,
Reading on, I come to “Bless This Dragon and All Who Ride Her”
You say: “I think it is very important to bear in mind that “kundalini” is one culture-bound signifier for an experience that transcends culture. Also we should bear in mind that mythic symbols always lose a great deal of their potency when interpreted literally - especially with any kind of exotic idealized projection of magic onto another culture or time.”
Adding Sovatsky's admonition: ”Names and Beliefs are Always Secondary to Practice and Direct Initiatory Experience”
Unfortunately, symbols are often misinterpreted even by those who see their limitations. Most symbols predated written language or the ability to read. The symbol was pointed to and the sage would intone its fuller dimensions both literally and allegorically. Then, the symbol carried a far deeper meaning than the shallow, objectified status it has today. The Yin Yang symbol is such an example of a metaphor so long abandoned for the depth of its representation, that it appears archaic and tainted with “magic” associations to tribal shamanics. Nothing could be further from the truth.
As to Sovatsky's comment, well that echoes what has been said by the sages since the days before the emergence of Hinduism. Being stuck in the past is being stuck, period. But, even an astral blazing hybrid like yourself will have to acknowledge that you are still “of” your roots, conditioned in the mud of this earth, and not “from” your roots as in moved beyond the beauty of your birth. Think about it. History indicates that somehow, most of what we see in the gross and the subtle was identified and clearly schematized and symbolized 6-8 thousand years ago in exactly the same place where the world's greatest spiritual traditions had their beginnings. The past is an illusion anyway as is the future. It is all present, the only place for the Kundalini is the present. What once was present and what will be, are. You and I walk now in the same dream as the same vedic scholars and shaman/priests arguing and jostling each other over the same EXACT issues that we did all “those years ago.” Same drama, same dream, same players, same stakes, same tantric beauty.
That every major religious (as well as spiritual) tradition identifies encounters with Kundalini as accompanied by the same basic symptoms leaves no doubt in my mind that, phenomenologically, it is definitely not a fabrication of any specific culture, but a condition of being. That some people get hipped to it, and some people don't is all the evidence I need of a hierarchy of awareness in human consciousness and de facto evidence of spirit, soul, and transubstantiation of same.
More soon, best for now
Michaelhey all—
just posted a symposium day 2 warm-up. essentially, it is a bevy of Gopi Krishna quotes and excerpts that provides a bit of background for folks not so familiar with Kundalini or his writings.
it's also a nice reference for the context of my post tomorrow. IOW, enjoy! :)
passionate words michael and beautiful turns of phrase! i both agree with the transcendent spirit of your points and diagree with the dismissal of evolution, development through time and specific differences/opportunities/perspectives that are available now but simply were not in the past…
elijah thanks for the excellent additions - i would also recommend the cooke-greuter videos up on integralnaked.org
delia - i think elijah answerde it well. yes change is possible and as i suggested before - altered states are free permanent traits/stagewise growth cost some and takes time….. the altered state is a) usually a glimpse of what ,may be possible higher up the mountain that one still has to climb and b) is incompletely and sometimes erroneously interpreted from our present center of gravity…..
elijah,
thanks for your further elucidation on psychographs. i did gather as much that vertical lines would be more challenging to develop, yet i challenge the notion that only one man's methods (Skip Alexander) have the capability of providing accelerated advancement along the vertical axis. that seems perposterous. yes, he might be wilber's fave, yet his methods cannot be the only game in town, as it were. ;)
honestly, i feel that a genuine spiritual emergence—kundalini or otherwise—can provide the basis for strong vertical growth. it all depends in how it is assimilated, integrated and nurtured.
now as it refers to self-help workshops, etc…i don't know if that assists one in vert growth. it could potentially prepare the soil for planting, however. i do see it as part of the picture for some folks in terms of opening to growth.
:)
whoa not sure what's happening with zaadz today and how it might affect the proceedings - but i am going to over to delias and check out the pre day 2 warm up……
i'll see you when zaadz reconfigures!
i think delia that by skip alexander's work they mean his research that demonstrates meditation over time moving people up in terms of various lines using established testing…. i am sure no-one thinks that skip is the only guy who can move people vertically! :O)
a genuine spiritual emergence of the kind you describe can but usually does not - says the data. and yes it has to do with the variables you describe, but also with other pre-existing conditions.
i think too we have to ask oursleves about which aspects of what shows up in altered states are glimspes of higher stages and which are anomolous material thart have to do with distorted brain function…..
Just realized I forgot to check this out yesterday! Oops…
Anyway, great overview of the theory to kick off Z2, dude! I'll catch up on the rest of the comments later and get into the dialog more.
P&L
~G
Glad my comments helped clarify things, Delia. :) I totally agree with Julian that skip alexander is not the only person who can help people move up. He is just one of the few researchers who has done solid research (according to Wilber) on relationships between meditation and developmental growth. Another useful things about psychographs is that they can potentially highlight areas where someone may not be as developed as others. For example, some spiritual gurus could be extremely advanced spiritually but completely nightmares emotionally, interpersonally, or sexually as Julian has correctly pointed out in his blog on the shadow of the spiritual psyche.
ok i am back online after a nightmare day of trying everything to get my computer to recognize the new zaadz IP …….. let's see whats going at chez delia!
finally back online after strugggling all day to fix a problem in my computer viz zaadz new IP address…..
let's go and see what's happening at chez delia!
finally back online after strugggling all day to fix a problem in my computer viz zaadz new IP address…..
let's go and see what's happening at chez delia!
finally back online after strugggling all day to fix a problem in my computer viz zaadz new IP address…..
let's go and see what's happening at chez delia!
finally back online after strugggling all day to fix a problem in my computer viz zaadz new IP address…..
let's go and see what's happening at chez delia!
hey fellas—-quick question—for some reason i can't get on to delia's blog….could someone send me a direct link to the blog, rather than delia's profile page?
daate everything is slowly emerging from the seaweed bath of zaadz changing their Ip address…… you should be able to get there now - try the link at the top of my latest blog entry…. her piece isn't even up yet because of the problems…. just her preview - but give it about 15 min.
oh boy - are we finally live again?!
did everyone survive the blackout? :O)
Michael writes: “Phenomenologically, it [Kundalini] is definitely not a fabrication of any specific culture, but a condition of being.”
A few years ago when Tom introduced me to meditation and yoga he suggested I read Sally Kempton’s book The Heart of Meditation. I first encountered the word kundalini on page four where Kempton writes:
“Kundalini’s power becomes particularly evident when we meditate. The awakened energy draws us into meditative states and begins showing us the tracks of our inner country even as it tunes the body and mind to a new level of subtlety and awareness. Over time kundalini transforms our vision until we see the world as it really is: not hard and bumpy and irrevocably “other” but filled with a single loving energy that connects us with one another and with the world. The effects of this awakening on my own life have been widespread and various. Mainly it has shifted my sense of being. Once I had seen that vastness no matter how caught up I might get in my thoughts or emotions or agendas, a part of me would always know that I contain a reality beyond all that. That in truth, “I” am expansive Consciousness. Over the years, I have come to measure my spiritual progress by how much I am in alignment with that initial insight — by how firmly I am able to identify myself with Consciousness rather than with the person I sometimes think I am.”
What was very significant to me when I read Kempton almost four years ago and now in relationship to this forum and Michael’s comment is that I recognized kundalini and had sensed its location at the base of my spine from a similar sensation that would occur while working in the studio during particularly intense periods of creative engagement. My familiarity with the sensation comforted my skeptical mind so it could accept that yoga was a part of me long before I had words for yoga practice, and that made it easier to accept more of the unusual words and concepts of the yogic tradition that my typical Canadian upbringing had not prepared me for. Knowing that the strong, palpable and consistent movement I felt in my spine when things were moving really well between the clay and me was actually this thing called kundalini reassured me that my body knew more about this new world I was moving into than my mind and to trust yoga for the Truth and conversation with the Divine that I was seeking in my art practice. Therefore I completely agree more with Michael’s comment that kundalini “is definitely not a fabrication of any specific culture.”
Thank you for this forum.
Joy!
Portico
nice addition portico - good to see you again!
oh apologies for the repetitions above - weird glitches iin the matrix even as we settle back into the mainframe again…….
cant decide if its my video above or delias incendiary fireworks!
ok so two more things:
1) michael the 4 principles are not sovastsky's but mine all mine mwah ha ha - although heavily incluenced by the transpersonalists and wilber…
2) i am not hearing many responses to the video of open sky bodywork. do you not know what to make of it or is seeing energetic process old hat to y'all? questions…..
Hello Dragon Riders! <for some reason leather, loud pipes and wind-blowing through hair… oops sorry Julian ;-p… comes to mind ;->
Just now entering the Zym… having finished Julian's part one (and the 50 comments!)…. Shazam! To reiterate what has already been spoken about this piece…. incredibly organized, detailed and resourced!
I love your personal accounting Julian~ <3
Intrigued by the trauma/resource ratio…..
I haven't watched your Open Sky Bodywork video yet… want to jump over to Delia's delight first… and save your video as the “cherry on top”…. stay tuned
“ The madman is drowning in the same waters that the Holy man swims in…”
~ s (for surfing ;-)
Julian~
Smiling as I just enjoyed dessert…the cherry on top: OSBodywork Video! Beautiful and sooo interesting…I *do* have questions. But its 3AM (!) and I am off to wander aside my changing sleep states….. and will return refreshed with budding curiosities to express.
Sweet dreams,
ZZZZZstacy
Be careful, very careful, if you choose to awaken this powerful source, which can do much harm if one is not prepared & accesses it haphazardly.
welcome dakini - fashionably late and brimming with enthusiasm!
look forward to those questions dakini!
thanks for catching up wtih us…hope you slept well.
yes simone - in fact that is one of the strong themes of the piece.
safe, integrated, grounded work with energy with a very healthy respect for the unconscious material that will emerge and the person's unique psychograph….
just a quick note for those of you who have been having problems accessing delia's post.
try clearing your cache both in your browser and your computer itself.
it seems to be working ok now for most people and her full, hyperlinked post is up now - even the comments section is now working correctly….. go see and join the conversation!
thank you zaadz team!
Hey Julian,
I watched the video again and was again struck by how similar it seemed to some of the breathwork modalities I have experienced. The people who are on the table seem to be very clear and open in their energy bodies. The motions seem fluid, rhythmic and dynamic. I assume that with people both new to the process and those who go deeper experience blocks and that these blocks show up as jerks, contortions and the need to push against resistance. It takes time to develop a level of trust particularly when men and women are working together. What issues have you seen arise over projection and desire? What is the contract between facilitator and friend, and is that different from formal work?
As you said, these are clearly friends and you are working/playing with an admirable level of trust and connection. This is a video of genuine intimacy (into me you see) and quite beautiful. The sexual energy is very apparent and the sensuality of being present in the body is wonderful.
What are some of your successful outcomes with issues of trauma such as war, rape, violence, abuse, addiction etc. What time frame do you have people commit to and what rate of people getting scared and dropping out do you experience?
Are there instructions for breathing? How do you initiate the session? How much verbal coaching happens? How long do most sessions take?
If I weren't at the other end of the continent I'd sign up for a session or two.
best,
coyote
on the money observations and questions coyoteyogi.
yes all four of us have been doing this for a while and have been through a process with it.
yes initially the energy is jerky and the resistance often reveals trauma and deep emotion.
yes as that processes through the movement becomes mroe fluid, less volcanic and more oceanic.
yes there is a lot of trust between us all - and that takes time.
in a formal setting there would be initial dialog about the boundaries and what does and doesnt happen in the sacred space.
in addition there is much time spent in dialog before and often after each session.
absolutely there is plenty of room for tricky projection/transference around desire. i think this kind of work offers an amazing (and sometimes quite challenging) opportunity to start to differentiate child need, adult attraction, and that powerful realm of deep ecstatic experience that is completely personal and also completely appropriate and impersonal at the same time….
yes i have worked with serious trauma, rape, molestation etc and had good results.
i also work from a holistic framework and refer people to therapy, as well as suggesting reading, yoga poses, organ cleansing (very important) and sometimes other bodyworkers if that seems to be indicated…
learning how to resource in the body, process deep feeling, trust pleasure, speak up when something is uncomfortable, talk about and tease apart the layers of meaning and feeling is all very helpful.
of course the process of dealing with these sorts of issues is more intense, less graceful looking especially initially, has fear, grief, rage etc in it and requires a great deal of resectful space holding.
i do two hour sessions and have people who come for anywhere from a few months once a week to a few years twice a month, to occassional sessions over many years..
the instruction for the first 30 minutes or so is deep breath through the nose, surrendered exhale through the mouth - similar to holotropic but less intense and for shorter periods.
with newer people i am giving constats gentle verbal cues - the longer they have been coming and the more comfortable they are the less talking happens during the actual table work.
yes! i use carefully chosen music for everything i facilitate except silent meditation.
thanks for asking such good questions!
ok ya'll i think we are staying with delia's post and my own for the moment - i cant wait for christiana's contribution, but i think it will land sometime in the the next 36 hours…..
in the meantime let's keep this juicy dialog going. loving it!
monday starts bang on track with michael…..
Okay, back at the Mac and my most recent responses are up!
J, I have a question about your Open Sky energy work re: video…
Is there any specific technique or method to where on the person's body you focus or how you touch them?
I observed several differnt forms of touch. One was like a light tapping in the area of the solar plexus and in another instance your hands were supporting your friend's spine while she layed in a supine position. I'd never seen the light tapping type movement before. Something about it is very intriguing to me.
The whole video was lovely to watch. The movement of energy was very graceful, sensuous and elegant. Thanks again so much for sharing it.
:)
delia yes! lots of very specfic techniques, theory, anatomy, hi charge points etc…
what we were doing is more the dance of being very familiar with eachother and with the work/energy…..
as i mentioned above in response tyo coyote - the on-the-ground day to day work is a lot more in depth. process oriented and less graceful (but still grace-filled) and has to do with dialog, assessment, gradual opening up of layers, organ cleansing.
over tiem people get to the point where their energetic system responds that way to touch, breath, deep feeling, love-making etc…..
think neo-neo-neo-reichian therapy with yogic grounding and transpersonal/intregral psychology underpinnings. :O)
Hey J!
Coyote and Delia asked some really great questions about your OSBodywork Video…. And in your typical fashion, you answered their questions with great detail and expansiveness… for the benefit of all, including me :-)
Briefly, I really enjoyed hearing about how you handle your sessions… the framework, boundaries, cues, followup, etc. And it was interesting to learn about the progression from jerky/ volcanic movements towards the exquisite oceanic motions. I'm curious if you are able to assess up front (to some extent) as to what it will take, and how long, to move someone through their blocks, resistances, kinks into the more graceful, flowing motions?
I also wonder about the organ cleansing… and its impact. I have heard you mention it a few times before and would love to understand in greater detail why you include this approach.
Julian said: absolutely there is plenty of room for tricky projection/transference around desire. i think this kind of work offers an amazing (and sometimes quite challenging) opportunity to start to differentiate child need, adult attraction, and that powerful realm of deep ecstatic experience that is completely personal and also completely appropriate and impersonal at the same time….
This really struck a chord with me…. not just in the context of (your) bodywork but (for me) in the grander context of intimacy, trust, connection, shared experience. Its still a fresh tone resonating… so perhaps I'll get more clear with it in time….
Lastly I was awed and inspired at what I would call consensual Energetic DJing…. thanks for sharing!! and i want to learn more :-D (yes, yes your 8 CD set…. its on my WishList <3 )
~ Stacy
Stacy said:
Lastly I was awed and inspired at what I would call consensual Energetic DJing.
Julian, there is a suggestion in your post of there being potential for a multi-tiered aspect to the OS body work. Initially there is the clearing, the working through of blocks, the expressing of difficult emotions _ the journey to a healthy open energy body. You then show how the work can continue among a community of the “competent” to include play, adult intimacy and deep communion. I have participated in such communities and while the opportunities for shadow to act out need to be watched for, the opportunity to completely release into the trusting space is pure gold. I am curious to know if you have ever structured a retreat for those willing to have gone through the fire with the intention of exploring new depths of intimacy, acceptance and sacred community.
Only consensual enegetic DJs need apply…:-)
lovely question coyote - i have not - but i have been giving workshops for the last couple years that are geared toward partners doing yoga, toucha nd breathing together in a way that teaches them how to play with energy together a la what you were seeing.
this is a step toward what you decribe… as you correctly suggest, the combination of psychological maturity, clear boundaries and mutual trust is rare indeed!
dakini - thanks for asking!
ok so the work is based on a holistic framework that observes that energy blocks/restrictions in the flow of life/pain-syndromes (TMJD, thoracic outlet, sciatica, low back pain for example) are caused by combinations of variables that break down to four components:
1) structural imbalances (think in terms of what rolfing, yoga and chiropractic address so well….)
2) psychological/emotional contractions
3) scar tissue from injuries/surgeries
4) biochemical imbalances (think about how the job of the organ systems is to clean the blood and that is they are not functioning up to par - then your whole system is bathed in toxins - therefore more acidic, more irritable, easier to injure, harder to heal - and on an energetic level kinda sludgy and blocked up…)
so most people need to undergo cleansing (first colon, then some combination of liver, gallbladder and kidneys) before the palpable energetic gifts of yoga and bodywork can really be received - also they need permission to process their emotional material and develop psychological awareness.
because these two holistic elements are missing from a lot of yoga and bodywork approaches - and because the physical piece is missing from most therapy - the awakening of ecstatic embodied free flowing energy that is our natural and healthy state does not happen very much via these modalities, and is still something that is not widely understood…
i have seen people go from moving no energy and feeling uncomfortable with deep massage techniques, to opening up energetically for the first time and releasing deeply on a physical/emotional level after one month of cleansing - it is a REALLY big deal for just about everyone to get those organs working better and flush out the toxins - big deal!
in fact my experience was that i received tons of yoga and bodywork for years and always had this unresolvable neck problem as well as a sense that all talk of energy was just airy fairy BS, until i cleansed hardcore for about 8 months and completely turned around my experience of my body, emotions, woke up to energy and radically reduced not only my neck problem, but also a generalized stiffness and soreness (esp in the a.m.) that at 28 i thought was “normal”…..blew me away!
i have taken people from chronic pain to liberated open-ness, from cynicism about “that energy thing”, to joyful self-discovery and freedom, from defendedness and denial to vulnerable empowered honesty. but it usually involves some combination of the above holistic variables.
yes - it's all about constant assessment. there is generally not a way to give a time frame right off the bat - though i can usually get a general sense just from interacting with someone how ready they are (or not) and how much work it will take (ie how much resistance/disconnection is there…) i can also spot trauma and assess hom aware one is of it and hhow intense it is - pretty quickly. i have had clients whom i have done hardly any bodywork with for the first year or too and just focused on building trust, talking etc…
i am pretty good at assessing readiness and also at guiding people at a pace that is right for them - that said i do at times just refer people out who may need to do a lot of therapy or who may require attention that i am not qualified or experienced enough to give…. the work is not for everyone.
i love the work and am usually booked up around 4 months in advance - and i love training others, but that is an even more complicated proposition and people really ready to not only learn but practice at this level are rare indeed….
:O)
OH!
i really should also add that this energetic awakening and exploration happens in my yoga classes too…
it's an entirely natural thing - someone who has never seen or heard about it before - if you create the right space, use good music, teach them to breathe effectively in and between the poses, sequence intelligently and allow space for emotional awareness - will:
a) begin to be initiated into the mind-body connection and start to connect the dots viz emotions held somatically and
b) will being to go into kriyas/spontaneous energetic unwinding.
so natural, so innate. so beautiful.
ALSO:
besides the knd ofreally dramatic kundalini and psychedelic altereed states we have fosused on so far, we also enter less overwhelming and very useful altered states all the time - driving and watching movies are great examples - and then there is the altered state of moving into sacred space, intentional dialog, meditative shifts in consciousness, the whole spectrum from sexual arousal to deep orgasm, emotional activation/triggering, ecstatic dance….
all of these offer potential glimpses of reality/ourselves outside of the conditioned box of our defenses and habit patterns - as such all can point us in the direction of growth and healing if integrated efffectively…..
how to integrate?
i find that TALKING about the experience helps to connect the cognitive structures with the experiential, sensate, intuitive structures - BIG DEAL!
also somatically anchoring some aspect of the experience can be very effective.
self-process around meaning, insight, healing etc from the experience, as well as the intentional engagement during the experience based in the desire to be conscious, to grow to heal, to learn…..
all of this can limit the tendency we all have to use practices and experiences to either avoid our suffering or as a kind of spiritual materialism chasing-of-the-“high”…. and encourage authenticity, groundedness and mature process.
Very nuanced piece of writing Julian. This quote shows that you pay attention to detail: ”One’s Interpretation of the Altered State will be Entirely Dependent on One’s Psychograph”
Psychograph is a much more specific word than structure-stage….
You also emphasize the communal aspects (teacher, community, LL, LR) which adds balance to the whole piece.
I'm proud of you :)
all best,
Pelle
hey glad you appreciated it pelle!
thanks for stopping by….
dakini,
i will vouch for the power of organ cleansing in transforming your yoga practice and energetic response. julian guided me through a year of intense cleansing, the results, 110 pounds lost total physical transformation, clarity in my thougth process, and finally able to FEEL energy moving through my body. the process can be long, as it was with me, but i think that allows you to become more grounded and prepared for the energetic shifts that arise later.
it's been a pleasure to read the detailed outline of the work, julian. as i've said to you many times, i didn't know what i was signing up for 5 years ago, i just wanted to ease the pain. i'm certainly glad i've taken the ride with all of it's curves, twists, highs, lows, accelerations, and decelerations. to be able to feel my body from head to toe, light and dark, happy and sad, is a gift. i'm so glad to have you on the gps throughout this trip.
namaste, annie
Thanks Annie for stepping out and vouching for the power of organ cleansing… :-)
Ok Julian~ i'm in your hands, will you hook me up with links, products, etc…. what would the next step be for this gal to get detoxified? (you can email me if you prefer) I have a bday fast on my heels, enjoying the dance on 40 ;-) and I'd like to celebrate opening a new annual cycle in a healthy way :-D … this will most likely include Radical Transformation as well.
Cheers, ~ Stacy
dakini!
go here. - but know that i am simplifying these protocols in the interest of affordability.
stay in email contact and we'll get you started!
yes it was absolutely phenomenal what happened with you during that initial period of cleansing annie!
thanks for speaking up….
you are one among many who have had radical shifts from cleansing - such a misunderstood and often overlooked piece of the puzzle - but your story is truly extraordinary!
pelle - any other comments - i was curious what you thought of the video and if you have any experience of altered states and/or kundaini-esque phenomena?
thanks for the props on the integral analysis - thats very kind….
stacy - remind me which part of the country you are in?
and maybe email me privately (or do it here) and let me know about your general health etc…
I had a Kundalini awakening at the beginning of this year. Initially I had trouble sleeping after having it, but I feel I'm integrating it step by step.
The video was a nice touch. I've never done anything similar but between my tango dancing, Kundalini, Alexander Technique and a general interest in the body/subtle energies - I intuitively understand the broad contours of what you're doing. The energy is alive in you and your friends after doing some kind of practice (ecstatic dancing?) and then the facilitator helps the movement of energy as well as reaching deeper places in the body by gently guiding and moving the head/neck/spine. To me it seems that the person lying down is also helping by playing with movements and muscle tension.
Very interesting stuff, and lately I've been feeling my own body looking for the kinds of movements you do in the video. Watching the video also gave me/my body a couple of additional impulses, so thanks for that.
Pelle
nice pelle.
actually all four of us dance every week, do the open sky yoga i've developed and give and receive bodywork to varying degrees - but the video is just like - hey wanna get on the table for ten minutes i'm making a video - no preparation, that's just where the energy is at for us these days!
one person is “getting into” and adding volitional gyrations to the movments because it feels so good and they are often locked up due to a chronic illness - the rest of us are totally just succumbing to the movements as they occur…..
tell me more about you kundalini expereince.
Good Morning!
Julian, I make my home in Texas…. and the woes and wellness of this petite powerhouse will be sent to you via Zaadz email ;-) We'll leave this space open for captivating comments… :-O
Thanks! ~ Stacy
stacy! you're in texas! where? have you told me this already?
Hmmmm. Daate, I *think* we discussed this already…. (Julian, add fuzzy thinking to the list ;-) For discretionary purposes, let me say that “Houston” is my neighbor…. although I did previously spend 10 yrs in Dallas for grad school and career ventures. I *love* Austin… but don't seem to get there much anymore (7 yrs ago I would go often to rockclimb and hike :-( Oh and I have some fabulous college memories (ok ancient memories ;-) of studying diligently in College Station and then heading to Austin for our payoff, a weekend of distraction and debauchery… Do you travel Daate?
i do travel….and yes we've discussed this, i remember now…..several times, i think :)……
my traveling will be limited for a while…..but houston's not so very far away…..:)
oh the texas ladies….. :O)
it';s fascinating actually dakini how many symptoms - both physical and mental can be traced back to toxicicty/acid pH/ compromised organ function - cleansing is a revelation to most people when engaged intelligently - and in my practice theproof is in the puddin' of what starts to become possible on the yoga mat and on the massage table as the tissue is literally transformed by the cleansing process!
always blows my mind…
Thanks for telling more about the video Julian.
I'm not in a space where I feel like sharing more about my Kundalini. Maybe when more time has passed, or maybe when we meet IRL :)
all best
Pelle
Julian,
I've ordered some of the kidney cleanse mixture from your site. I feel a bit in limbo here, as I don't want to get caught between modalities. As things stand now I go in to the hospital to have one kidney removed on 8/13. Needless to say I am highly motivated to strengthen and maintain all my organs. On the other hand, I don't want to be in the midst of a cleansing “crisis” when I'm being operated on. I know you are not a doctor, but have you had experience with someone in my situation?
Where's Christiana?
peace,
coyote
coyote - the kidney complex will not create a cleansing crisis - it will support your kidney/adrenal function. my suggestion: start, and then take nothing on the day of the surgery - and begin taking it again about one week after…
i'll pop it in the mail tomorrow…
i can completely respect that pelle - thanks.
oh - christiana had some unforsen complications and was unable to post anything…….. stay tuned - michaels piece is up as planned though! check it out…
Really fascinating, never heard of kundalini or as like described but I've had my own meditative “altered” experiences and sounds somewhat similar.
I've met some people who experimented with LSD/DMT and had similar experiences in that they were trying to deal with their traumas.
What do you think about using drugs in safe environment with a “healer” type persona as guides? Would you recommend this in connection with your own practices now?
Just curious…
Quite enjoyed the post, Julian. The only thing I would add is that I studied Arnold Mindell’s process work in the early 90’s in Seattle, and I do think he is working the inside aspect of the lower right… he works to process group states and is not afraid of extreme states.
I also find family therapy theory and therapists at their best work the inner dimension of groups at their most confusing and scary…and also leadership and organization development theory and org. consultants in the corporate world are working the outer structural design side of human groups–Peter Senge and Fred Kaufman’s side of the street… other than that, I’m pretty much agog at your clarity.
hey lucidity
i think that psychedelics with good preparation, solid guidance by grounded initiates and a good framework for integration/interpretation are one of the most powerful paths available - at the same time their power carries an equallly large propensity for self-delusion, inflation and generally going off the deep-end.
i think that over time if one is serious about practices like yoga, meditation, somatic expereiencing, bodywork , ecstatic dance etc one can learn to take nibbles of the material/altered states that psychedelics basically force down your psyche's throat…….
i tried just about every psychedelic out there in my early - mid twenties - but knowing what i know now about the psyche i don't know if i would be so reckless…. that said i still think they are a vlaid path (with some important caveats.)
mark - excellent observations - couldn't agree more.
is this mark from sundays?
ok all - sa'Rah's powerful piece is up now.
her story is amazing and her courage in sharing it brought tears to my eyes….
hell yeah! stay tuned - i think christiana's AWOL piece is about to emerge from the ether….
Wow, I gotta catch up on all this! Sorry I have been AWOL. I did post sumthin, check it out.
Meanwhile, I will be reading Sarah's and everthing else I have missed.
that makes me so happy - thanks christiana!
Greetings to the kund (womb, or bowl) a lini (electric current) co-experiencers..I have been wondering where to place the words I have.
According to the leader of the Himalayan sect of the nath sampradaya, the yogic teaching system that is the root lineage for all raja, kundalini, bhakti, and all other forms of yog…these nath yogis are required to earn nine black felt belts in energy mastery..this is the root system to every belted system we have today.
indeed, these high end yogis have the scolls that recorded the yogi jesus as having attended various political meetings in the badrinath and rudraprayag monesteries during his day, he attended them along with his own nath master, chetan nath, by whose power he suceeded at his own ressurection.
I speak into this because, we should know that kundalini is the residue, or the left over bioelectric force that occurred when the om or big bang resounded…and its magnetic nature has it collect at the base of every human spine for the purpose of becoming reactivated in order to guide the divine consciousness into its fully realized condition.
I am noticing that no one is speaking into the SECOND HALF of the awakening process…called the”solar return” this, is the proces that crowns the yogi with a halo…or golden orb of the sun shinning behind the yogi's head…..once shakti has risen, and she greets her lord at the third eye center…we are required to surrender to a fully qualified kundalini master or preceptor as one can ascertain by reading Vasishta's Yoga or another vedic based scriptural teaching that has been given for those who are born with the awakening having been already activated, and are then on the path of full and complete absorption…which leads to the condition of transparent, or out of time through light as our only conscious reality.
I highly, highly recommend each person who is experiencing a kundalini transformation, to check out www.hamsa-yoga.org this great nath master, the only one teaching in public today…will be speaking before the UN on October 25th for an hour, to explain to the full caucus, how a human can transform spiritually so that we can authentically acheive earth peace through self peace.
namaste, in the deepest way.
a small hamsa
(soul)
Hi Julian!
I love your posts. Every time I read one I understand a little more.
Just want to add to what Annie said about how great cleansing is. With years and years of “serious” meditation practice, I pretty much poo'd such things until I reached a physical break down point where I was in so much pain I couldn't meditate and could barely pursue my yoga practice. Julian recommended I cleanse and what a difference it made!
It took like a serious year of struggle with the cleansing process – I kept getting sick every time I tried a cleanse, but gradually I managed to do it and clear out a good portion of the junk which was making me so ill and causing so much pain (physical and emotional). I can’t say it was the cure all, but I do believe I wouldn’t have recovered without it.
(all this talk about cleansing is making me feel like I’m due for another try to see if I can clear out the last of this pain still hanging out in my neck… hm… good idea.)
Julian, to your post, I think there is a tendency in many spiritual traditions out there to sacrifice personal health and well being on the alter of higher pursuits. I spent many years in what seems to me now like a very unbalanced, stoical kind of practice, where the cure for every ill was “just meditate more or just meditate harder”, but it was a mind state that led to physical, emotional and social neglect, and that led to a pretty sad existence. (And then you'd ask what was wrong, and the answer was just meditate more… and then… well, you get the idea.)
Don't get me wrong, meditation is wonderful, lots of meditation can be wonderful, but I've really come to appreciate that you can't take your spiritual practice out of the context of the health and balance of your physical body, or your mental health and balance, or even the balance and sanity of the world and people around you especially when your are dealing with practice in higher and altered states.
I'm watching a friend meditate himself to death right now and I despair in it, because I know there's no way I can convince him to give it a rest and really attend to repairing his body. I love him, but I know he’s not entirely sane, and that makes me very sad.
Many people on such a strict path may sincerely believe that attending to the body distracts from the pursuit of higher awakening. I love the story of Milarepa. His story has inspired me through very difficult times, but there is a confusing message in there: you don't need to care for your body to follow the path to enlightenment.
The weird thing is part of me still thinks that way, that it is possible to go beyond the body in these super high meditative / altered states.
But it just doesn’t jibe with my actual experience.
I ran into Julian at a time when I was seriously in a crisis, not just health wise, but about the practice I had invested so many years into. Somehow I couldn’t face the fact that it didn’t work, and yet, it wasn’t working.
So, Julian, thanks, your work is filling in the holes in the puzzle I’ve been trying to piece together. Trying to integrate the truth and beauty of everything I’ve studied and practiced over the years, with this practical reality of health and balance and integration.
I’m reminded of an image, I think it came from one of the Castaneda books, that the seeker on these paths was like a kite in the winds. The kite had to be held firmly to earth by a strong string or it would be lost. All of what you've said is that string.
Still working to process all that wonderful stuff we did in Esalan….
I feel like there are all these tools and ideas that once I start being more comfortable with them will open huge doorways of possibilities. Is taking some work, though.
yep, mark from sundays…
monica this is beautifully said and very kind - thanks for sharing yourself….
mark - good! i had hoped so…
Z2 keeps rockin' on - Daate's magnificent contribution is up now - go see!
In the realm of plant entheogens, I would like to say that there are some profoundly useful ceremonies sponsored through the Brazilian Santo Daime Churches that are primarily based in Brazil, where the use of ayuasca is legal. I noticed that in the above article no mention was made of the importance of PREPARATION for these sacraments to be truly potent for the spiritual seeker.
The combination of a kriya practice with a regular sacrament ceremony (and most ceremonies last from 5-8 hours, this is SERIOUS worship, not the stuff most americans do) can have the effect of adding fuel to a rocket if the goal is bliss permeation and the absence of negative ideations, ie; active ego content. The doctrine of this church (as well as most ancient in tact teachings) stress the importance of not engaging in any form of gossip, or negative talk about other humans, and this includes thoughts about oneself…
And also stressed is the importance of, once you arrive in a condition of love permeated bliss, to remain there, seated in this garden next to the mother of our universe, in this case…the ever virgin Mary…since Catholicism was the container the Brazilian Government forced upon their people. Many discover an innate ability to acheive this goal, once a true merging with the sacrament and the doctrine and the ceremony has occurred.
The sacraments are held in a manner that protects the electromagnetic realities, the polarities of the energy the ceremony container needs to hold for the worshipper to have the desired experience…only women touch the leaves, only men touch the vine…they sing and pray for two full weeks while the pounding and cooking take place, until the consciousness of Juramidam is well infused into the drink.
In India it is very similar…many Maha Shiva Ratri ceremonies contain the beverage with Datura specially prepared……the effects are definately an evolution (Love…spelled backward…volution, moving forward) love moving forward is evolution, and these preparations indeed create neural bridges through increased firing of synapse endings supported by an increase of positive electromagnetic energy infusing the brain with the sincere desire in the heart radiating into the hymns that are being sung, while men on one side, and women on the other, they dance until the energy and ceremony complete.
I hope my presence here is not causing a problem. I am not intending to come trump any information, I was simply looking for the place the information I have, would be most valued. when I look around at our world I think to myself…the most support I can provide, would be to show the quickest path to self peace…since this is the key to earth peace…yes? There is a case going soon to the supreme court to help promote the legalization in america of this sacrament which is legal in most of the rest of the world.
Practitioners of yoga are often found in these ceremonies, which can be found all over the planet…Japan, Europe, Brazil, Spain..and there are about 22 private churches in the US. I have discovered that many Yoga instructors do not welcome my presence in contributing information, because folks have created livelyhoods around this spirituality which I have been taught is a birth right…when someones livlihood is threatened, the good intentions can be challenenged, I beleive this is why in the cultures I am familiar with, the spiritual information, and practices and ceremonies, are always available to everyone equally…that way, when new information arrives, there is no negative motivation to suppress it. This way, indigenous cultures were all free to evolve without resistance…which is definately no longer true, today.
Namaste. I hope this information was helpful.
thanks so much for adding your voice hamsa!
i didnt know there was a case coming up - didn't the unio de vegetal just win something in the last year?
yes, they did.
and of course, its a complicated situation given our current governments focus and tone.
And, much is differnt in the Uniao organization…as usual, different folks, realities and approaches. :)
ah ok - it's ironic that under a more conservative freedom of religion admin it seems like churches like these have more of a chance getting their sacraments legalized for their use?
hi j
just reread your piece. most interesting and thought provoking (and a pleasant read of largely elegant writing to boot) on a subject i had next to no formal awareness of, although - as you point out, such energetic experiences are normal to the human bodymind - just not common - and i suspect that many people have energetic episodes / state changes to which they either pay little attention because they're more or less dissociated, or are so used to them that they've forgotten that they're anything remarkable anyway.
one challenge being, as you have alluded to, that culturally, such state changes are often regarded with deep suspicion in current western culture (along with psychotherapy, sexuality, and lots of other things which are hopefully becoming more culturally normative), and similarly often regarded as mystical in traditional eastern and new age cultures.
there seems to be a clear contrast between the intentional engagement/triggering of powerful energetic states, and the more cathartic spontaneous seismic shifts described elsewhere in the zymposium, which seem to be a whole different ball of wax, with different causal factors, interpretation, and especially different experience.
j and hamsajohanna - as for the use of psychotropic drugs on a wide scale - even with involved ritual preparation - my view would be:
if you need them, you're not ready, and if you're ready, you don't need them.
i find it hard to imagine a situation where a more empowering alternative would not be preferable - such as psychotherapy or self-esteem work among many others - especially given the overwhelming majority of drug use as a means of avoiding awareness/acceptance of neurosis/low self-esteem, and the tendency of drug use to increase the level of psychosis/detachment from reality.
even when ingested in a spiritual-religious context, and invested with notional special significance, it's still fucking with your wetware in a potentially damaging way which is quite different from experiences engaged through practice and internally altered biochemistry. it's possible to invest anything at all with “sacred” significance - from books, to wafers, to bat piss and so on. the placebo effect or conceptual “value addedness” is largely similar beyond the actual neurophysiological. calling psychotropics sacraments doesn't change the fact that they're hallucinogenic drugs with volatile and potentially destructive effects.
and don't go putting them in the water supply - that was never a good idea ; )
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WdTy0FUAqL4&mode=related&search=
that's the crowbar approach to spiritual growth! i recommend for the sacrament-curious to “stay on the path”, and read the section in fear and loathing in las vegas which describes the 3 hours of hellish introspection on mescaline and acid! (or talk to some of the people i used to know who went there… and never came back) - you'll save lots of time later on the couch or the park bench…
(parental advisory warning over)
in thinking about how spirituality - as a non-mystical non-magical aspect of consciousness - should be promoted culturally, i think it valuable not to make any states into second class citizens - including the state required to interact on a physical level with the universe - everyday “normality”. the more that connection with all that is can be appreciated in the everyday, the less subconscious need or desire to run from it, or “transcend” it. i think the seeking for spiritual “highs” can be used to escape (again) from subjectively painful pyschopathology, and while numerous traditions state more or less explicitly that identification with the everyday/self/thinking mind is a primary cause of unhappiness, i think this is not a constructive - or integrative - approach. equally, rejection of the expansive and witness states of consciousness is also imbalanced and cuts one off from deeper and more joyful connection with every thang that is…
on a separate note, i did like some of the Hamsa Yoga Sangh content linked from hamsajohanna's comment - refreshingly down-to-earth in places. i especially like that it's a non-prophet organisation ; )
from your piece, i was particularly intrigued at the application of therapeutic intervention, i.e. intentionally engaging with the energetic system at that level in order to experientially de-repress past experiences which the bodymind, unable to metabolise/process at the time, may have internalised and stored instead (on occasion to erupt dramatically later as z2 posters have related). this would be a direct benefit that i could relate to.
in what ways do you think the energy work facilitates stage growth of consciousness? i can imagine various mechanisms, i'm curious to hear from your experience how you see it as functioning (if you haven't already included that in your essay).
and, once acclimatized to kundalini energy flows, how do you view this kind of energy work/play in your own life? do you see it as therapeutic, serious (non-frivolous) fun with therapeutic side-effects, or what? it looks from the video that you are all comfortable with allowing the flows to occur. i was also interested about your comment that there was no preparation required - that it was all rather spontaneous. being able to get into state changes like that so rapidly i find again intriguing.
i've been training in a similar modality which allows immensely powerful and intense emotional/energetic release - not expression - of rage, grief, joy and whatever else comes up on the way to and on the way back from a deeply expansive state. again, trust and safety, whether alone or guided in process, allow the process to be experienced more deeply and integrated with forgiveness - also useful for trauma. i haven't experienced the silver light or spinal sensations etc mentioned elsewhere, or - apart from actually in a sexual context - the more sexually related energy flows which seem to be in your intriguing video. rather i have just allowed myself (and facilitated others) to be taken over by sometimes dramatic energetic emotional release which lasts less than ten (intense) minutes per state/emotion, but the whole process can last an hour or two or more. whether this could be included within what is described as kundalini i don't know - it's probably more emotionally based, although that's energy too!
for now, i'm curious to hop on that dragon to see how it could usefully extend an integrative system of practice.
michael - i found it illustrative of the psychograph-based interpretation point, that you saw the universality of kundalini type experience of which only some become aware as “all the evidence I need of a hierarchy of awareness in human consciousness and de facto evidence of spirit, soul, and transubstantiation of same”, whereas i saw it as suggestive of the neurophysiological fact of the human bodymind operating partly via a complex internal energy system, within some cultures which don't actively support that fact or encourage education in these areas! interesting how different interpretations differ i thought. i wonder what the troops in the clip made of their lsd experience after they'd come down!
anyway, while yoga may be profoundly beneficial to management of energetic flow, it is also obviously superior to the mere kung fu that i have trained in…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYlNNy929Y&mode=related&search=
call yourself a yoga teacher julian ?? pah! ; ))))
i'll get these observations posted for now, more later on this and the other fascinating and courageous contributions.
well done and thanks to j and the whole z2 team!
notwithstanding the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and i can't disprove the ontological claims of mysticism as regards the actual existence of a non-dual groundless ground / suchness, the following is also relevant and is consistent with my experience:
Later, once the subjects had finished meditating, the regions were imaged and the meditation state compared with the normal waking state. The scans provided remarkable clues about what goes on in the brain during meditation. “There was an increase in activity in the front part of the brain, the area that is activated when anyone focuses attention on a particular task,” Dr Newberg explained. In addition, a notable decrease in activity in the back part of the brain, or parietal lobe, recognized as the area responsible for orientation, reinforced the general suggestion that meditation leads to a lack of spatial awareness.
Dr Newberg explained: “During meditation, people have a loss of the sense of self and frequently experience a sense of no space and time and that was exactly what we saw.” The complex interaction between different areas of the brain also resembles the pattern of activity that occurs during other so-called spiritual or mystical experiences.”
you may remember the cpu analogy i used in my z1 essay, to describe the localisation of focus during deep meditation in the part of the brain which is pure consciousness, to the exclusion of other parts. this is what i was referring to.
the most congruent lucid total immersion in an “infinite” state i ever experienced happened many years ago. this was a state where i “was” disembodied consciousness - a pure point of consciousness in infinity - an utter sense of actual infinity - of total fucking blackness - a pure sense that i was utterly alone in an endless darkness for all time, and yet indivisibly part of it. it was the purest state i can recall before i started tinkering around under the bonnet myself.
this was not induced through years of practise with a master, but through the ineptitude of a dentist who gave me a slightly insufficient dose of general anaesthetic. i was perfectly lucid, but had no - zero - sense of physical self, sensory input or otherness or physical separateness from it all - a perfect non-dual experience, which in this case was absolutely terrifying - and that was before the first tooth came out! then it was circular rings of fire with a boom of agonising flame every time the circling fire registered the “pain”.
now, occam's razor is considerably less painful than tooth extraction, neatly shaving off as it does superfluous and spurious explanations for things for which simpler explanations cover all the known evidence (i'm open as usual to being corrected here). my experience does not disprove any of the mysics' claims (i could have accessed another plane of existence in this state right, for which there is probably a sanskrit word which has no english translation), but a perfectly sufficient explanation can be provided by what we already know within the realm of neuroscience, as corroborated by dr newberg's findings, subjective experience, common sense, and reason. furthermore, there is no evidence of which i am aware that any of the claims of mysticism in this area cannot be explained by neuroscience, nor any valid reason to invest belief in any other metaphysical explanation.
demonstrations of deliberate manipulation of brainwaves by experienced meditators merely reinforce this assertion - subjective experience is determined by neurological state, and volitional consciousness can be used to volitionally alter that functioning (given enough training) thereby altering the subjective experience. consciousness is rooted inextricably in the bodymind. i know of nothing to contradict the assertion that the mystics are wrong - the groundless ground theory is groundless.
this doesn't change or diminish one iota the depth and intensity of UL states - i know, i've been there, and fortunately much more joyously many times subsequently - just without the cultural wizardry that is drummed into the minds of many associated with prolonged meditation.
and i don't consider apprehension of those “non-dual” states as any more profound in of themselves than the complete fucking miracle of waking human consciousness, a sublime dance of the most complex neurophysiological hardware and software in the known universe - all states are equally amazing if viewed from this perspective. if you unplug half the circuits of the brain and nervous system, of course it's going to feel “non-dual” - you're removing consciousness of the circuits of the self. look ma - no glands!
the ultimate non-dual is a logical continuation of this where all circuits are disconnected - also known as death.
(the implications of the above for kundalini i'll explore more with some of the other z2 writers: the compassionate razor is coming…)
it's all in the mind folks. move along - nothing to see here.
Adam,
You do a good job presenting the materialist argument. Of course if you are 'right' that is merely a collective firing of specific neuronal synapses and if you are 'wrong' a similar firing of slightly different tissues. All the affective tone of your posting: anger, passion, eloquence, wit become mere examples of biochemicals changing their molecular structure. To do this you are not wielding Occam's razor but Thor's hammer. Go ahead, pound away until everything is just a complicated arrangement of the periodic table. Uh oh, who's that holding the hammer?
You write: volitional consciousness can be used to volitionally alter that functioning. With this you introduce a not so subtle dualism. Who or what is this “volitional consciousness”? Merely more biochemistry? An epiphenomon of neuronal sequences and patterns? The question “who or what is this “I” that seems to be in charge?” can potentially, through meditative inquiry, unfold and eventually collapse. Neither I nor anyone else can ever prove this to you, but you can find out for yourself (and you get to keep your teeth.)
if you unplug half the circuits of the brain and nervous system, of course it's going to feel “non-dual” - you're removing consciousness of the circuits of the self. look ma - no glands!
First of all, good fun. I love playing with words and images. But who is this 'you' who is unplugging? And, noting the mechanical metaphor, what makes 'you' think you can 'unplug' anything? The 'you' is completely and hopelessly entangled in the tissues. What agent is unplugging? By what means? Who is the programmer?
Your posting is an eloquent example of confusing correlation with strict one to one causation. Take all the brain images you want. Slice and dice the tissues until you have a thorough understanding of all the simultaneous biochemical exchanges, in all the 1.5 trillion cells of your body. You will never find some “thing” that is consciousness.
Who was it who said “Enlightenment exists. You will never be enlightened.”
Are you going to tell Gopi Krishna that his experiences are merely a jangling of his limbic brain? Come on, it's much more interesting than that. And more fun.
it's all in the mind folks. move along - nothing to see here.
exactly
hello coyote
my name's adam, nice to meet you virtually.
thanks for your response. i'm not sure what your point is exactly (you seem to be defending something without saying what), but in reply (which may be missing your point completely - let me know):
You do a good job presenting the materialist argument.
your comment is not the first to misrepresent my arguments as materialist. in order to do this, one has firstly to excise and ignore the large portions of my arguments which describe the actual existence and importance - and enjoyment of and reverence for - subjective somatic, emotional, and spiritual experience, and additionally the volitional usage of consciousness, and consciousness itself, and the relationships between consciousness and the bodymind. i have no idea what is to be gained by so doing, other than defending a position which apparently cannot be defended on logical grounds alone, and which requires distortion and misrepresentation of my arguments to be sustained.
everything in UR is material, everything in UL is non-material (to continue the use above of that particular graphic conceptual representation), and i think my philosophical views honour both more inclusively than a view which may tend towards idealism (i don't know if that is your view since you decline to say what your view is, only where you see mine as unpalatable and/or confused.)
Of course if you are 'right' that is merely a collective firing of specific neuronal synapses and if you are 'wrong' a similar firing of slightly different tissues.
what would the different tissues be? i'm not clear on that.
All the affective tone of your posting:
anger,
???
passion, eloquence, wit become mere examples of biochemicals changing their molecular structure.
from what do you deduce this interpretation of my views? those things which were suggested to you in my writing are expressions of consciousness supported by neurophysiology/biochemistry etc, but not of biochemistry itself. they're inextricably affected by biochemistry (and psychology and psycho-epistemology etc), but are not reducible to it, and i don't attempt this.
To do this you are not wielding Occam's razor but Thor's hammer.
i'm not familiar with that philosophical concept ; )
but i probably disagree with it anyway ; )))))))))
Go ahead, pound away until everything is just a complicated arrangement of the periodic table.
???
what's being pounded here? out with it!
Uh oh, who's that holding the hammer?
since the hammer here is metaphorical, i see it as volitional consciousness which is holding the hammer (over-extending the metaphor somewhat here!). what (or who) else might it be?
You write: volitional consciousness can be used to volitionally alter that functioning. With this you introduce a not so subtle dualism.
what's wrong with dualism? i'm sincerely curious. i don't have a problem with it. one cannot have a concept of UR without dualism. objectivity requires subject and object, conceptually at least. conceptuality requires a conceiver. and so on. why would i try to be subtle or otherwise about it? it's a fact of human life. denial of it is selective or full-blown psychosis, or avoidance of reality as far as i can tell.
Who or what is this “volitional consciousness”?
i think volitional consciousness is a non-material (and “spiritual” - see z1 day 4 for my definition) function of the human organism which forms the basic tool of survival, experienced subjectively as a self-awareness over which the self has some control of focus, and which has been arrived at by an ongoing process of evolution, in which survival value has been demonstrated in the tending towards its preferred selection.
what do you think it is?
Merely more biochemistry? An epiphenomon of neuronal sequences and patterns?
please cite for me the passages of mine which suggest to you that i seek, in the manner you describe, to collapse subjective experience into the objective, in other words collapse and reduce UL into UR, and seek to equate the two. this would help me understand where, and possibly how, my communication is not being interpreted as desired.
The question “who or what is this “I” that seems to be in charge?” can potentially, through meditative inquiry, unfold and eventually collapse.
absolutely. so can the sense of having a body, a sense of having boundaries, a sense of egoic constriction, awareness of psychopathology. what's your point?
Neither I nor anyone else can ever prove this to you, but you can find out for yourself (and you get to keep your teeth.)
thanks! too late for some of them though : (
it's pretty clear in my writing that i'm a big fan of meditation, spiritual practise and the enjoyment of life, as indispensable values necessary for a truly integrated life (towards which we continue to aspire), despite numerous attempts to suggest that my views are incompatible with the same. i don't need anyone to prove to me that the question of “i” - indeed all questions - can temporarily collapse during a process of enquiry, which has the effect of altering functioning of the parts of the bodybrainmind responsible for asking them (as well as inducing sensations of deliciously joyful expansiveness, and perspective-enhancing awareness of one's psychology and inner life). i've already done this to my satisfaction, and seen and experienced the level of connection possible between humans when fear is replaced by the non-judgement and accepting curiosity of witness consciousness experienced in a rational cultural environment.
i declined (unsurprisingly) to further experiment with general anaesthesia as a tool of spiritual experience, although stupidly, i failed to see the connection between that and the numerous forms of anaesthetic self-medication which i later prescribed for myself, including alcohol and cannabis (my attorney has advised me not to disclose any other alleged experimentation) which also induce altered states of consciousness, albeit more destructively than meditation for example. if i hadn't done this, i might be able to present philosophical arguments with more clarity and precision than i am apparently able to do now. i could have been someone - i could have been a contender!
like a shark that goes into a catatonic state when inverted, or held under the lower jaw, the parts of the human brain responsible for cognitive questioning appear to selectively and progressively “sleep” when subjected to certain types of sustained enquiry. they just can't handle it - system overload occurs. we're not so smart - evolution is ongoing…
these questions - including the sense of i - would also collapse if one were to be hit on the head - physically - by the large hammer you mentioned earlier. and they all need to be answered once one has (hopefully) regained full consciousness, which includes awareness of the constructed nature of parts of the self as illuminated by enquiry, as well as ones rational faculties which allow for the examination and consideration of the self in the first place. both myself (conceptually, experientially, and logically) and dr newberg (empirically) have demonstrated that the collapse of numerous self-senses can be explained quite satisfactorily purely within the discrete functioning of the human bodymind.
“if you unplug half the circuits of the brain and nervous system, of course it's going to feel “non-dual” - you're removing consciousness of the circuits of the self. look ma - no glands!”
First of all, good fun. I love playing with words and images.
it did amuse me!
but my point is serious.
But who is this 'you' who is unplugging?
the consciousness which is aware. in other words - self-awareness, which is a non-material reality (as far as i'm aware ; )
as to how that occurred, you'll have to take that up with evolution. as to how evolution occurred, you'll have to find an explanation, invent one (a popular choice) or live with the uncertainty of not knowing. i'm in the latter camp, although i do get hints of possible mechanisms, random accident certainly being on the list.
And, noting the mechanical metaphor, what makes 'you' think you can 'unplug' anything?
the belief, supported by personal experience and historical evidence, that “one's” consciousness is volitional, and that by volitionally focusing one's brain on the task of enquiry - including self-consideration - one can affect the functioning of parts of the brain - metaphorically “unplugging” certain areas or modules.
The 'you' is completely and hopelessly entangled in the tissues.
i'm not sure what you mean here. the “i” cannot - to my knowledge - meaningfully be said to exist independently of the bodymind, and self-awareness is usually experienced as in the body. is this what you're getting at?
(on the topic of i.b.e and o.b.e., i was on tenterhooks waiting to see if that shoe really was on the hospital roof in one of the entries or comments elsewhere on this zymposium : )
What agent is unplugging? By what means? Who is the programmer?
the agent (if i get you correctly) is the human being exercising consciousness volitionally. the means is however volitional consciousness operates - neuroscience goes some way towards demonstrating the how, but i do not think that ultimately the mechanism of consciousness can ever be demonstrated concisely, since it simultaneously involves subjective and objective components, and subjectivity is alas largely a private affair.
however, the fact of consciousness can meaningfully be demonstrated. as can the fact of matter and of life.
the “programmer” (if i understand your meaning correctly here) doesn't exist - the positing of a single programmer i see as being borne of the human need to establish causal relationships. programming exists, arrived at by numerous contributing biopsychosocial factors, but - other than the i which is variously the subjective experience of self-consciousness, there is no programmer.
Your posting is an eloquent example of confusing correlation with strict one to one causation.
thanks for the backhanded insult! here you reminded me of an omission in my comment. i said that “subjective experience is determined by neurological state”. what i meant to add, but forgot to before posting last night, was that subjective experience, focus, and neurophysiology are synonymously bound in a cybernetic feedback system, or rather process. all are inextricable parts of an inseparable relationship (as j referred to above). since they are so intimately affected by each other, my original statement is incomplete and over simplified as it stands. various aspects of neurophysiological state are also affected by focus and subjective experience.
Take all the brain images you want. Slice and dice the tissues until you have a thorough understanding of all the simultaneous biochemical exchanges, in all the 1.5 trillion cells of your body. You will never find some “thing” that is consciousness.
this is hardly a contentious point. consciousness is a non-material entity. like a dream, like desire, like questions, like judgement. i don't expect to find consciousness in matter. consciousness is a process, not a material thing. however, it only exists as a process within living biological organisms as far as we know.
the observation you made is also made by ken wilber, and as with here, it is not an argument for or against anything, or at least nothing i've been proposing. as with idealism, exclusive belief in materialism (to the latter of which i think you're both referring) strikes me as stupidly facile if not clinically insane.
Who was it who said “Enlightenment exists. You will never be enlightened.”
probably andrew cohen. i don't know what it means anyway. you'll have to enlighten me.
Are you going to tell Gopi Krishna that his experiences are merely a jangling of his limbic brain?
have you got his email address? is he a zaadzster?
i wouldn't tell him that anyway, and i wouldn't use the word merely in any case, demeaned as it has been in these circles by what i see as rather condescending buddhist/neo-buddhist overuse, in the same way incidentally that the delightful word gay has unfortunately been misappropriated culturally for the purposes of sexual self-identification, and the word integral has seemingly been inextricably conflated with wilber's own mystical beliefs.
i would however point out the flaws in gopi's reasoning which allow him to sustain the implausible metaphysical beliefs he holds, and point out to him how his experiences in consciousness can be explained more satisfactorily (and completely) by examination of the near infinite complexity of the human being, than by the mechanisms which he posits more on speculative grounds than on due evidentiary justification.
i don't think he'd be much interested in my points. he might even call them materialist ; )
Come on, it's much more interesting than that.
i agree, and have repeatedly. UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL UL (sorry, it's been a long night coyote) combined with UR UR UR UR UR UR UR UR UR UR UR (i'm getting hysterical now : )
and more precisely: the glory (and/or misery) of subjective experience and states of consciousness is not diminished, devalued, undermined, marginalised, or oppressed by the fact of there being an objective correlate to it in biological material reality! by all means possible, let us bring on the dancers, sound the trumpets, let the poet wax lyrical, revel in the rapturous beauty of all of creation and celebrate it - or at least be grateful enough to do something about sustaining it. and then observe (objectively) that a part of that beauty is man's ability to reason objectively about these things, to have values which can be found to be beautiful - the same ability which allows him to survive and make music, and create computers and social networking websites, and for which i suggest due appreciation should properly be forthcoming.
consciousness is about the most fascinating thing i know of apart from sex and guitar amps (the latter often being used as a device aimed - however misguidedly - at increasing incidence of the former). what i want to know is - in what way do you see his experiences as more interesting than the near-miraculous bodymind processes which i describe, let alone the subjective experience of them? i mean, it all seems completely mindblowing to me (metaphorically of course). isn't life beautiful enough without resorting to unsubstantiated mystical beliefs? (which i assume is what you are trying to defend here, reading between the lines as i am). either that, or you're defending subjectivity, which seems somewhat redundant, as feelings don't have feelings. unless - if i were in a teasing mood - one were to include post-modern pluralist minority groups ; )
And more fun.
nowhere near as much fun as sex and amps. i'm joking of course, my own personal most profoundly joyful experiences having been enquiry based and and involving neither of those other fine transports of delight, although i'm working on a new modality which combines all three. now that'll be fun!
it's all in the mind folks. move along - nothing to see here.
exactly
where else and what else do you suggest coyote? hit me widdit.
backatcha bro - with respect from one consciousness to another. we are all gods - metaphorically… but awfully young gods still. let's hope we get to grow up.
Adam, likewise pleased to meet you. All in good faith and all in good fun, this conversation of consciousness that we be having.
I appreciate your writing and will have to spend some more time with it to be sure I get it (this time). I am not a philosopher and do not much enjoy endlessly teasing apart others words and sentences to find weaknesses and contradictions. I have neither the energy nor talent.
My preference is for physical conversations face to face and not posts exchanged. I am delighted that you are not intent on collapsing UL into UR. Much more interesting. And yes in the physical world there will always be a correlate between the two.
Uh, thunder and lightning on the way_ I'm going unplugged.
best and thanks
yo coyote!
boo! i was looking forward to your answers!
come back you coward! it's only a flesh wound!
i like face-to-face conversations better too, but i do like the growth potential that interacting with so many brilliant people here at zaadz gives me.
however, now all i have left to gnaw on (sob) is the weaknesses and contradictions in your despicably cowardly retreat ( ; )
before leaving you with one question at the end - in addition to the ones in my reply now, but they're as likely to be rhetorical as anything… given that you won't answer them!!!! (couldn't resist : ), here's some more gratuitous pedantry:
and i hope you can still think kindly of me in the morning ; )
All in good faith and all in good fun, this conversation of consciousness that we be having.
well… i did find your original comment somewhat snide and sarcastic and dismissive in places, so i wouldn't say all in good fun but my writing to you is done with sincere good will above and below the level of discourse. i'm also sarcastic and dismissive at times, so i'm not judging… it's a learning process.
I appreciate your writing and will have to spend some more time with it to be sure I get it (this time).
i'd prefer that! the thing is, despite my tendency to generalise and be smartass, i try to make things make sense, primarily using doubt and logic. this does not go down well with mystics who rely primarily on neither. the trouble with my philosophical method (i don't know what it's called - pricklyvism or something) is that it includes everything (in principle - i'm not a psychological superbeing) for which there is sufficient basis to believe in its existence, using the non-contradictory integration of experience to answer a primary question - what comprises reality? this unfortunately includes a lot, which makes labels like materialism not very appropriate, even if i appear at times to be supporting that.
I am not a philosopher
you must be aware at some level that that is like a child putting a hand in front of its eyes and saying “you can't see me”! for starters - every normally functional human being is a philosopher - our brain requires it for its operation. everyone has beliefs about reality, life, and their place in it.
secondly, i've seen some of your other comments, and you have considerable philosophical facility from what i can tell, with nuanced and informed comments on the nature of spirituality and consciousness.
thirdly, you critiqued my comment on explicitly philosophical grounds.
and do not much enjoy endlessly teasing apart others words and sentences to find weaknesses and contradictions. I have neither the energy nor talent.
you enjoyed it enough to tease apart my words and sentences to find weaknesses and contradictions! (that mostly weren't there, but still…). i can easily imagine that responding to me could be numbingly tedious, but the claim that you have neither energy nor talent strikes me as either false or disingenuous.
My preference is for physical conversations face to face and not posts exchanged.
mine too, but you've been getting by pretty well elsewhere in the comments sections!
I am delighted that you are not intent on collapsing UL into UR.
i have never expressed an interest in so doing. i'd be even more delighted if people wouldn't try to pretend that the UR doesn't exist!
Much more interesting.
than what? and why? i can't help it can i ; )
And yes in the physical world there will always be a correlate between the two.
boo! cagey answer! we know that - that's no concession! i've said the relationship is more dependent than that (as did j above)…
Uh, thunder and lightning on the way_ I'm going unplugged.
the business model didn't work out. i'll join you on the acoustic. it's the only way…
best and thanks
ciao 4 now coyote!
p.s. here's the question - only one, so you've got no excuse:
by what method do you assess your beliefs for validity?
late to the party and packing some heat - welcome adam!
i cant wait to read what looks like a juicy exchange.
coyote thanks in advanced for playing……
i'll jump in later today when i have caught up……
someone bring the other's attention to this please - especially jim and daate….
a joy to read both your excellent questions and balanced observations adam as well as your initial response coyote - perfect set-up for a rich discsussion!
it raises for me something that i experience on zaadz a lot - when one presents a reason-based philosophical position the first assumption is often that one is not experienced spiritually - and the reason-based philosophical points are answered with a somewhat condescending assertion that one canot know the “truth” because one has not entered deeply enough into the practice/path etc…
i have three things to say about this:
1) as i have tried to point out in both zymposiums and the z-bate - it is the DUTY of those of us who have entered deeply into practice and pathand who have had profound transformational experiences to ongoingly INTEGRATE and communicate them in contemporary non-fragmented ways that they can be congruent with reason, groundedness and psychological authenticity - failing that we perpetaute the pre/trans confusion and wishful-thinking use of phenomena and belief as “proof” for metaphysics that they have only a thin connection to…. which leads me to my next point:
2) i think we do well to differentiate clearly:
a) the potency of certain experiential phenomena from
b) the metaphysical baggage and beliefs often associated with them….. they are two different things and are actually not inextricably intertwined.
3) experiences of altered states and/or metaphysical belief systems do not trump inquiry and critical thinking - this is what the bush whitehouse tries to do and is at the heart of the madness of religious war and oppression. now of course it is of a different order altogether in our gentle community - but i think it is worthwhile observing the root similarity….
more later ~ j
oh, and adam (and others) about the bodywork - all four of us looked at the video (having never seen ouselves like this) and remarked on how much more sexual it looks than it feels!
does the work free up one's capacity to be full-bodied in sexual] situations? yes - beautifully.
is the work itself sexual? no, not at all.
i think one of the reasons for the association is that for most people (if they are lucky!) the only place they might witness or experience energy moving like that is during intense sex - but from a liberated energetic practice perspective it is entirely natural to be alive to the wave of life while stretching, doing breathwork, weeping, making love, dancing, watching a “moving” piece of cinema etc….
part of the work has to do with nuancing and differentiating a sensually alive and emotionally responsive state from the related but different state of being sexually expressive.
again most of us have not been fortunate enough to tease apart and liberate these energies!
yeah - the video was partly reminiscent of sexual energy to me (you saucy lot!), but i think it was actually more that it looked like the body was being moved spontaneously by the energy - as happens at times when one is lost in or after sexual abandonment - rather than it being explicitly sexual.
the distinction you just made makes sense to me.
in any case, reading about this phenomenon in language i can understand, and seeing the vid, has got me interested enough to pursue further. looks good for increasing flow and body connection.
Okay, one question is much more appetizing.
by what method do you assess your beliefs for validity?
I don't have a method for assessing the truth of my beliefs. Beliefs have a way of being self-confirming. My beliefs are the filters and contexts which stand between me and my direct perception of the world and more often than not, they come in disguise posing as that very direct perception. Part of my process and commitment to spiritual growth is to discover what my beliefs are and have them stand clear in the light of day. Writing this response is serving in that capacity now.
The process of exploring and illumining beliefs can be done in a number of ways. Directly I have found The Work to be useful. I say that with a somewhat rueful smile as I dismissed these 4 questions as the worst of newage hooey for years. Some good friends who I respect invited me to hear BK speak and I spent two hours in tears. Hmmmmmm. I trust my body more than my mind and this was a powerful somatic response contrary to my snobbish sense of “taste”. Okay, so there is one answer_ I trust my body, not to reveal a belief's truth but its existence. The most powerful part of the 4 questions is the use of turn arounds, particularly with relationships. It can be quite liberating.
Other methods that can reveal beliefs: integrative breathwork, council work, relationships, meditation and most recently_ serious illness. Pragmatically I am less interested if a belief is true than is it resourceful? Is it leading me to greater health and sense of connection?
The most telling example of this in my own life is my participation in a 12 step program. The steps and the literature are not to my taste at all. In fact, I find them quite indefensible. But the belief in those steps is very resourceful. Resourceful for my own sobriety, for sacred community and for service. So I “believe” in the 12 steps even though my rational mind finds all kinds of problems with it. Rather, I do the steps and then notice that my life is better. It is very humbling. Humbling is good.
I have other beliefs that exist as voices in my head. Since I often struggle with self esteem issues these voices show up as the “you can't” variety. “You can't dance.” ” You can't write.” “You can't sing.” etc. These beliefs get revealed when I dance, write and sing; the performance is in direct resistance to the belief. No, less resistance than an acknowledgement and then a doing in the presence of that voice or belief without giving in to its power.
Hiatus. More later after dinner. I know this is unpolished prose.
coyote
Julian,
some quick reflections and perspectives. You write:
i have three things to say about this:
1) as i have tried to point out in both zymposiums and the z-bate - it is the DUTY of those of us who have entered deeply into practice and pathand who have had profound transformational experiences to ongoingly INTEGRATE and communicate them in contemporary non-fragmented ways that they can be congruent with reason, groundedness and psychological authenticity - failing that we perpetaute the pre/trans confusion and wishful-thinking use of phenomena and belief as “proof” for metaphysics that they have only a thin connection to…. which leads me to my next point:
I have a strong reaction to the use of the word DUTY. I think this is a story. I think many people have profound state and stage experiences but simply continue on with their everyday life. People have profound state experiences and stage growth but remain within their more traditionally bound faith communities. I think it is wonderful to respond when asked but otherwise it is important to let people be as they are, wherever they are. If people feel drawn to engage in the process of translating experience into words and rational arguments then fine. I enjoy reading some of them, but I object to suggesting that it's a duty or obligation. I thoroughly enjoy the idea of deeply grounded, integrated, spiritually 'adept' people quietly going about their business.
2) i think we do well to differentiate clearly:
a) the potency of certain experiential phenomena from
b) the metaphysical baggage and beliefs often associated with them….. they are two different things and are actually not inextricably intertwined.
Yes but with the caveat that it is not my business to separate anyone from their luggage metaphysical or otherwise. They can pack as much as they want and carry it for as long as they want. (and I won't carry it for them…end of metaphor) There is a wonderful method of sharing in a group called 'mirroring' which can often allow the story teller to see and appreciate their personal beliefs through the powerful experience of having their own story retold to them with slight variations of their own words and images. I would be surprised if you did not use this method in your own work and it is particularly useful when unpacking dreams and visions. With mirroring there is no separation of metaphysical “baggage” but instead an expansion and amplification. It is the step from some image or phrase meaning just one thing to having the capacity to hold multiple meanings.
3) experiences of altered states and/or metaphysical belief systems do not trump inquiry and critical thinking - this is what the bush whitehouse tries to do and is at the heart of the madness of religious war and oppression. now of course it is of a different order altogether in our gentle community - but i think it is worthwhile observing the root similarity….
I partially agree and God Forbid I defend the bush whitehouse. Certainly I agree that it is fatal for personal religious experience to be translated directly in national policy without being passed through the process of public rational debate and critical analysis. So yes, no pushing the button because “jesus told me to do it” to save the pagans.
However, I cherish my own direct experience of the sacred and am under no responsibility to share it publicly, and neither is anyone else. I'm fumbling here for the right phrasing. People have a right to their stories_ just as they are. People become ready to drop their stories as they develop and grow. As you know, if you function as a teacher your job is to create that space where growth and change can happen. But you cannot force that change and too agressive an inquiry into someone's beliefs entrenches them more often than liberates.
I am very wary of the crusader mentality, perhaps I am hyper-sensitive and project it where it does not exist. very possible.
Now these forums are of a different order and structure than either sacred space, teaching space or public space. They are an odd mix and I'm still feeling my way as to how best to participate. I do know that I would like more people to feel comfortable about throwing in their 2 cents worth whether rationally based, effectively argued or simply because their spirit guides told them it was important to their ascendant evolution.
I recognize there will always be a tension between open acceptance and perceptive de-construction. It is an art. The most challenging aspect for me is communicating tone. If I am perceived as arrogant or heavy handed i've not done a very good job of finding the right turn of phrase. Fuzzy thinking has its place, especially if you've been cuddling with your keyboard for the past hour….
trying to a gentle man
coyote
coyote - i agree with you completely and love the distinctions YOU are teasing out.
everything i said that you are qutoing back i meant entirely in the context of us all having chosen to write about his subject in a public forum.
and yes absolutely for me this is totally different than holding a one-on-one or group space that is expressly about creating safety etc…… that is so beautiful and potent in the right context too! it's actually where i spend most of my time professionally.
so i am all for mirroring, alllowing people to be where they are etc….
for me this zaadz space is a gesture toward a slightly (but only slightly) more academic and journalistic forum, so i do also feel something of a duty to identify and acknowledge areas of confusion that cause suffering and push the envelope in terms of sharing information and engaging in discussion that will bring more clarity to the surface - hopefully i am becoming slightly less heavy handed and insensitive in my attempts to do so!
i have throroughly enjoyed our interactions thus far and i really feel your heart dear man.
all the best
~julian
Hi Julian and Adam and Coyote, and all.
I appreciate what Coyote says in his post addressed to Julian (the one that begins, “Julian, some quick reflections and perspectives”), because Coyote addresses some IMO important points that I have long found it difficult to articulate.
I think Coyote strikes the right chord when he talks about letting people tell their (spirituality related) stories, and when he says that this is an art.
I also agree with Julian that there is an ethics to belief. Voltaire said, and I paraphrase, if you can be made to believe absurdities, you can be made to commit atrocities.
Something I've come to realize is that many people who are interested in spirituality, integral theory, Ken Wilber's work, transpersonal psychology, Eastern philosophy, etc., aren't necessarily interested in philosophical analysis of their “spiritual” and “integral” beliefs. And I've also come to realize that this is something it behooves me to respect, for reasons such as those Coyote articulates.
I've come to feel that at best, I can extend an invitation to someone to participate in a philosophically analytical discussion about certain beliefs, but it is up to them whether or not they want to participate, and if someone doesn't want to participate in such a discussion at a given time, that's their prerogative.
And sometimes I don't think it's appropriate for me to raise the issue of whether or not a given belief is justified.
Often, when people speak in spiritual terms, they may sound as if they are speaking propositionally (I'll explain what I mean by that in a moment), when they aren't.
These are propostional statements or statements with “propositional content”:
Oswald was the lone assassin.
The earth has one moon.
It is August.
There are WMD hidden in Iraq.
I do not consider the following statements to be propositional statements, unless of course someone who makes one of these statements insists that he or she intends it as a “propositionally contentful” statement:
Jesus is Lord.
She died last night and now she is at peace.
There is only the Self.
The presence of all the Buddhas pervades the cosmos.
A statement can be pregnant with meaning and significance and evocative of the sublime without being propositionally contentful.
If someone says something like this, “We are not limited to the gross bodymind,” I really don't know what they mean without further information. They may not be speaking propositionally at all, or they may mean to imply that they believe in what is generically called paranormal phenomena.
Also, I think some folks, lacking confidence in certain of their beliefs, use vague language to avoid committing to those beliefs. I mean, if someone really and truly believes that Uncle Fred is on “the other side” and that in the right circumstance it is possible to communicate with him, and that this is not only an intrapsychic phenomenon, I think they ought to have the courage to come right out and admit it. I would have no problem with that as long as they added that they don't think that people who are skeptical about their belief in an afterlife are “flatland materialists” or “narrow-minded.” I say that because it seems to me that people with “spooky” beliefs all too often defend against healthy skepticism by suggesting that anyone who is skeptical at all is pathologically skeptical, i.e., closed-minded and unspiritual, etc., (Julian addresses this problem above).
But I get the impression that some folks who have “spooky” beliefs are shy to admit it, and use vague language in order to fudge around the issue.
And if that's where someone's at, again, unless they have agreed to play the analytical philosophy game with me, I don't feel that it's right for me to press the issue, for example by trying to force them to admit to having a spooky belief. Unless there is some ethical reason why I think I should press the issue, for example, if someone says that Uncle Fred told them “from the other side” to stop taking their child to doctors and dentists, and to stop using a seatbelt on the child. But actually, if someone believes that, they don't need philosophy, they need a psychiatrist.
Just rambling here, I hope I made sense…
Jim
excellent observations jim!
adam what say you - and where is salima?
:O)
Beautifully said Jim.
love the Voltaire quote. There is an article in this weeks New Yorker about our country's systematic torture and abuse of prisoners at CIA “black sites” around the globe. The inquisition lives on, we've just changed the list of questions. I vaguely remember a KW piece on the spirituality of Nazism. Playing to the red meme of tribal ferocity can be a tremendously powerful tool of manipulation and motivation. It was Napoleon who said he could get men to risk their lives for a piece of metal and bit of ribbon. So political discourse is one place where the gloves can come off_ but not here, at least for me. There are plenty of blogs out there where politics happens 24/7.
I am not a trained philosopher so I found your distinctions of propositional statements useful. As for spooky beliefs, I've got mine and you've got yours_ transcend and include.
Spooky beliefs can have healthy function like an old blanket or stuffed animal_ safe, friendly and comfortable.
and yes Julian this is an unusual form of sharing and growing. Hopefully somewhere in between bare knuckled cage fighting and a deep green sharing circle.
have a good morning everyone….
salima has been at massage school, tirelessly (and probably in futility) fighting to drill a hole of clear blue sky through the hazy shroud of “what-the-bleepishness” that hangs over austin….just a little hole, a pinprick, with a chisel and not terribly gracefully….this really is a kind of hilarious crusade where i feel a bit like don quixote in a dali painting….but please don't assume that means i go ranting at all and every spooky belief….i got my own spooky stuff, i'm sure…..
(and adam! i love your energy and your sublime ability to get any ball rolling anywhere anytime…..welcome welcome!!! and i completely agree with what you said above, and find it oh-so-refreshing after my day….)
hope you guys don't mind if i vent as well as relate what happened today, as it's eerily related, and i'm sure it happens to julian all the time….
here goes: we had a guest lecturer on the endocrine system today, a well-respected woman who has her PhD in nursing and has written extensively on mind/body health….she started off tying the chakra system to the endocrine and nervous systems, an integration i am tremendously interested in and respect…..but then…. she proceeded to recite nearly word-for-word the scripts of both “the secret” and “what the bleep”….and to tell us that all emotion comes from love or fear and blah blah blah….we create reality with our thoughts….and on and on…..and we can choose to respond to situations with love, or with fear, which is the root of all “negative” emotions….and i asked some questions and i suppose became a little ornery….but i wanted to know, i really did, how she could possibly account for psychological development in that world of hers….because i've never seen anyone have the gall to stand up in front of a class and lecture on this stuff, especially out of context of the supposed subject matter…..the only concession she made eventually was that we ought not to push the truth on others, as they may not be ready for it, and not to judge other souls, as we don't know those souls' “agendas” or sacred contracts or whatever…..and then added that some aids victims she knew were very grateful to have the disease, as it's made them more “spiritual”…..so we ought not to assume that such people are suffering….
i really can't stand that crap, as familiar as i am with that model…..and i am past caring what kernels of psychological validity might be embedded deeply in there, as by the time someone has become enchanted by that belief system they rarely extricate those kernels from the rest….and the very worst part of it was the more impressionable members of my class, some of whom are healing from their own traumas and vulnerable and not particularly inclined toward critical thinking at the moment, were drinking in every word……and i'm sorry, but i hope it doesn't sound pious or patronizing for me to say that seeing this makes me sad.
and in relation to what both jim and coyote were saying, i'm very aware that this is a deep emotional trigger for me and that plenty of people can be more relaxedly salad-bar about the whole thing. but aside from my personal experience with this, it still hurts me that people get ensnared into this type of thinking at their most vulnerable; i've seen it happen often and that's primarily why i am driven to be outspoken about it.
my classmates and i gathered in the kitchen for a post-lecture pow-wow and i had some of them telling me that my position was incredibly “subjective” and not allowing for others' “truths”……it was my first experience of that kind; i can't believe i made it through two months of massage school before encountering it. at any rate the whole thing was fascinating on many levels; i wasn't the only one who thought it was bullshit, but i was the only one who got angry. so the day wasn't without a good dose of self-examination, and a little dismay that it seems that you can't be “spiritual” and make value judgments…..but also shock at how many of my classmates seem actually content to believe this stuff, or to let the stuff exist and believe that it in itself is harmless, and that if a person is drawn to it and it's toxic, it's “just part of that person's path, and meant to be”…..and on some level of course i see the truth of this, but they're talking from a “check-out-the-synchronicity-in-the-universe” spiel and the “everything is perfect just as it is, and those who don't see this are simply adding negative reactive energy to everything,” not a more grounded psychological one….
kind of relating to jim's last post: what was interesting and of note about this teacher was that she was very much inclined to believe that ambiguous answers to very direct questions were shrouded in the kind of dewy mystery that you actually need in order to be “spiritual”…..but no direct questions answered, simply a regurgitation of “conversations with god” and “seven spiritual laws of success” and so on…..and again, when i meet someone like this one-on-one i am far more interested in finding out about them than having an argument….but when you are teaching a class on physiology and presenting this crap as fact, you tread into dangerous territory…..
it is an important distinction to tease out when the “live and let live” philosophy does or doesn't serve. coyote, i appreciate what you said about tone, and i really do get what you say about “transcend and include” and spooky beliefs. i wish sometimes i had more patience for spooky beliefs; and it's strange, in a one-on-one setting i do; but it's really when someone's chance at a healthy self-concept and healthy integrated life is impeded that I get concerned. and i've seen a lot of that. but, i also see how your emphasis on presentation matters a lot; and i see zaadz as a place for us to vent, sharpen our intellects and our positions, engage our curiosities and share our vulnerabilities, all within the context of understanding that we will receive honest feedback, like it or not.
on a side note, and primarily addressing adam and coyote's discussion a few posts prior: i can't stress enough here how something like the myers briggs personality test can REALLY help here in understanding the mode of presentation of all of our symposium participants; i feel as though if we had a rudimentary understanding of myers briggs we may more fully appreciate that two people can say the same thing in different ways, or come at something similar from different angles, and be slightly put off by each other's presentations. (not saying you guys were rubbing each other the wrong way, because i think your discussion was substantially content-based rather than just a reaction to each other's tones.) i also think our symposium participants wouldn't use the MBTI (myers birggs type indicator) http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm to dismiss or pigeonhole but rather to good-humoredly understand….i think in the last symposium, most of the contributors were INTJ's (Introvert Intuitive Thinking Judges), and their style of communication can seem brash and harsh to feeling types. they're usually self-assured, sincere, analytical, sometimes cocky, but always with a genuine desire to understand. they also have the remarkable and inspiring ability to communicate with each other with absolute clarity and lack of a need to emotionally cushion one another—-i feel that the way they show the highest respect to each other is to be absolutely honest, hard-hitting and unabashed in their positions and criticisms. they delight in turning over every detail of an argument, and i generally love it just because they manage to articulate what i mean much more cleanly than i often can. it 's wonderful to watch. but i've often seen people mistake what they're saying as “materialist” or “utilitarian” or just plain mean simply because of their presentation. I think that communication style does matter here, as not all types are this way, and certainly most people don't receive this way—and this is important to know when trying to access a wider audience than those who already think and communicate similarly to you. of course i've also been frustrated on zaadz with people's lack of directness and fuzziness for the sake of not being “mean.” what i have seen in F's (feeling types) is a wanting for people to feel OK, to be safe and secure and validated to some degree, sometimes at the expense of common sense; and what i have seen in T's (thinking types) is a desire to challenge, to push the envelope, to point out beliefs that don't serve the person, sometimes also at the expense of common sense. the happy medium here would be to address people in a way that is completely conscious of their inner emotional life but also to retain the healthy autonomy and self-assuredness that would eventually inspire people to follow their own truths with equal equanimity. people innately trust integrity, i think; and it is integrity both to be compassionate and to intelligently challenge. (not that i've mastered this, as i got pretty worked up at school and learned firsthand how important presentation really can be and how if you seem activated and off-balance people concentrate much more on your energy than the content of your argument.)
and again, adam, i can't agree more that the miracle of the human brain and its consciousness is plenty to chew on, plenty to be in awe of…..and so i wonder why this woman lecturer, who so clearly saw the combined miracle of energy and physiology in the body, would need the added dimension of magical thinking to tie it all together? anyway….keep the posts coming, i'm loving the conversation. :)
What a great comment, Daate! I love it.
I was Myers-Briggs'd in the eighties and I came up as an INTJ!
As for the communication style of INTJ's seeming brash and harsh to feeling types, I'm reminded of comments Alan Watts made about “gooey” and “prickly” types of people.
There are basically two kinds of philosophy. One's called prickles, the other's called goo. And prickly people are precise, rigorous, logical. They like everything chopped up and clear. Goo people like it vague. For example, in physics, prickly people believe that the ultimate constituents of matter are particles. Goo people believe it's waves. And in philosophy, prickly people are logical positivists, and goo people are idealists. And they're always arguing with each other, but what they don't realize is neither one can take his position without the other person. Because you wouldn't know you advocated prickles unless there was someone advocating goo. You wouldn't know what a prickle was unless you knew what a goo was. Because life isn't either prickles or goo, it's either gooey prickles or prickly goo. They go together like back and front, male and female.
This is of course a caricature of philosophies and types of people, but I think there's something to it.
:-)
Jim
coyote! bare knuckle cage fighting? wow. which aspects of the dialog come across to you that way?
it saddens me that an honest deconstruction of lines of thinking and healthy questioning of belief systems in the interest of clarity, healing and growth so often gets construed as an attack on the person…… coyote surely you know better than most, with your background in non-duality - that the Self is absolutely distinct from one's beliefs, defenses and strategies for avoiding reality. is there not a great tradition both via satsang/darshan and via spiritual philosophy and community of rigorous debate and an interest in cultivating discernment and authentic courage in the face of life's complexities and the mind's delusions? why then is this so tabooo in the current zeitgeist?
my sense too is that the political is the personal and vice versa - what we think and feel personally and how we construct our cosmology/worldview is both a reflection of our sociopolitical context and a powerful influence on how we interact with that context.
i know none of this will be new to you - but let me make my case a little here - as this is one of the key underlying points of why philosophical discussion and critical thinking are in my opinion so needed in the spiritual community - and i think we can all take the discomfort of being asked to back up statements, think more clearly and inquire into unfounded assertions.
take for example my deconstruction of the secret - that piece of mega pop culture spiritual entrepreneurship has several, several propositional statements about what one should or shouldn't think and do with regard to the iraq war, homophobic hate crimes, your and other people's socioeconomic situation, abusive relationships, cancer and children with acute illness……embracing the belief system of the so-called LOA has very big implications for how one thinks about the world and one's place in it - and they are basically bad ones with regard to truth, beauty and goodness!
take for example this video (shit i cant find the link - wait…) on the zionist/christian fundamentalist alliance that reaches to the highest levels of government in america and wants to hasten the rapture and sees the antichrist as “someone who will bring peace to the middle-east”. these are the same folks pushing the re-merging of church and state in the US and making religious beliefs part of the political discourse/debate.
take for example islamic fundamentalism and the link that the extreme version of those beliefs has to terrorist atrocities….
i think it is part of 21st century spirituality to step up into a whole new level of inquiry into how successfully we delude ourselves and perpetuate unfounded beliefs - what a powerful aspect of our tragic history and potential demise that capacity for delusion is - and how a grounded integrative spirituality can address this this most serious, serious problem.
amen, amen.
yeah i brought up the intj thing just because i think the general public goo has trouble with the clarity sometimes presented by the prickly people….i love that jim, thanks for it…..and i agree julian, we can't coddle each other. the point with myers briggs that i was trying to make is that it's important to note that people show their love for the world (perhaps i just gave myself away as a “goo” person by the very use of that word) in different ways, and for some of us (and hopefully, eventually, for all of us) it's through incisive critical thinking that will lead to people's growth and healing, even if it at first seems aggressive. it's not aggressive, it's a version of love that comes from great care of people. it's every bit as important as soothing people's immediate worries and concerns. and it's thinking long-term about what will ultimately serve people. maybe the prickles can bake the cakes and the goos can deliver them in all their gooey ability to read how people best receive information…..but they do need to be delivered…..and once a comprehensive 21st-century spiritual model is in place, it can hold rather substantially under minor modifications that suit different types of people, hopefully without losing its integrity….
curious for your input coyote?
daate you speak to my experience of the last 15 years - massage school and it's related community, the yoga world, la's westside, the alternative graduate schools, spiritual psychology on and on - what coyite earlier told me was a “straw man” i loved to rag on is really a ubiquitous spiritual orthodoxy that is exactly as you describe it:
relativist
eschewing of critical thought
enamoured of vagueness and fuzziness that you have to squint to see - because that makes it more spiritual
filled with bad metaphysical rationalizations for why sufffering is really not suffering
completely (ironically) condescending to anyone who doesn't buy the whole worldview/cosmology hook line and sinker
and lastly absolutely maddening for someone who refuses to accept the incongruities and is emotionally awake enough to feel the callus, unjust and plain perverse implications of the premises.
again ironically the counter from the new age is that you are being too heady and need to just feel it - unfortunately in order to buy this stuff you have to be dissociated from feeling!
what i have observed in being in the thick of this for so long is that it's not so much that there is a strong correlation between all the vulnerable wounded variables you mentioned and the unfortunate perpetuating of the cognitive and spiritual distortions created by trauma in the first place - but that the two have never not gone together.
let's be honest here:
the new age worldview is a perfect fit for our contemporary american dissociated, traumatized, lacking in critical thinking persona-reality and it's avoidance of shadow and regressive superficial fantasies about what spirituality is……when in fact it is the exact opposite.
we do the world and our wounded compadres more of a disserrvice when we go the idiot compassion route with this stuff than by injecting a healthy dose of reality and authentic spirituality into this wasteland.
gentleness and real compassion are essential - but part of growing up is facing the trurth that hurts and there is no shortcut.
and yes tone matters and is somehting i have been working on.
and yes outrage is IMO a healthy response that one then has to learn to temper.
and yes meyers briggs is great to bear in mind…..
what's IMO?
and yeah….you'd think i'd be better at tempering my outrage, sensitive little infp that i am….
but i really hadn't had much experience with that in particular….still reeling from it a little i suppose. it's funny how nobody liked the tension in the room when i was asking her questions….people were relieved to change the subject, because they thought i was being “mean”…..i would have liked at least a few folks to realize that whether or not they agree, debate is important, particularly when a supposed scholar is making statements about absolute truth….but anyway…..
:)
Julian et al,
Phooey. My intent did not come through. The bare knuckle comment was an attempt to pick out the most extreme image of a winner take all scenario. I don't see that here, not anything close. I was trying to be witty. damn
I want to go back and read all the comments. I apparently have come across as being thin skinned. Not so. Thanks Daate for the MB suggestion and yes I'm INTP - INFP, as you probably could have guessed.
been asked to go for a walk. more upon my return.
I love this forum and am excited to be making new friends
coyote
IMO = in my opinion
the tension is good the outrage is appropriate.
the discomfort with tension and healthy anger is diagnostic.
the judgement is self-contradictory and ridiculous.
the approach to such big questions is inane - especially in the context of a supposedly integrative healing/learning environment.
i would complain to the director once calm enough to make a good case and cite several good writers on the subject for their edification.
real integrative healing and education is possible - this aint it!
simple.
Julian:
daate you speak to my experience of the last 15 years - massage school and it's related community, the yoga world, la's westside, the alternative graduate schools, spiritual psychology on and on - what coyite earlier told me was a “straw man” i loved to rag on is really a ubiquitous spiritual orthodoxy that is exactly as you describe it:
Wow, I had no idea it was that bad.
Greens in Sweden can be obnoxious and they do drive me mad sometimes, but for the most part they are intellectual greens with a social pathos, and as such they are still open to logic, research etc. I guess our respective experiences of green are very different Julian.
I also want to say that I do notice that you're continually working on your tone Julian, and I appreciate that very much.
All best,
Pelle
greetings salima - thanks for the comments, and the myers-briggs input. more on that later. (by the way, from what you related, i think your lecturer was behaving irresponsibly and indefensibly, and should be learning not teaching. our unwillingness to confront irrationality has cost the world a lot). coyote - some of our exchange has influenced some of the words below, but they're not intended for any person in particular at all, and in any case, my first “level” below stands.
guys - for now, my blood sugar is a bit low which doesn't help my level of bounciness, but this is not a new feeling i'm having, and i just wanted to throw something in briefly, even though i'm skipping a few comments posted in the last while. i was thinking of coyote's comment about politics (on top of the whole exchange which has much great food for thought), before j contextualised it again in his “bare-knuckle” comment, although this is in a similar vein it is not aimed at any particular person at all.
there are three levels i want to comment on:
the level of person to person: i really don't care on this level what a person believes, where they come from, or anything, as long as they can look me in the eye and recognise a fellow human being, and behave with the respect that is due accordingly. they don't have to pretend that they love me, that we're all the same, or anything like it - just recognise the fact that we're on the same rock tryin' to be human. i can do that - not always perfectly, but pretty well most of the time. i have a fair idea for example, that with any of the people with whom harsh words have been exchanged on this site i could rise above any disagreements and connect on that level at the very least. i think it's a good thing to remember - criticism of a belief is not an attack on a person.
the level of belief: i just wish that people would grow up understanding the critical importance of intellectual honesty - the honouring of the reality of what is going on in one's mind, above feelings, above wishes, above convenience, above defensiveness - actually how to think rationally, which is not the same as repressing or dissociating from feeling. it is not possible to live pretending that it doesn't matter what we choose to believe, without there being consequences. the time for that is over, and it was always a costly exercise. honouring another's right to believe is fine in principle, but to pretend that it doesn't matter is naïve. we are social rational animals. we live, eat, shit, and die - there has never been an exception to this in the whole of history that there is any evidence of. we are of this earth - whether the thing is comprised of particles or waves, whether there is a universal god who is everywhere or not - it is fucking irrelevant to this fact. we are here now, and we need to wake up to those parts of human experience and knowledge which are appropriate to those facts of nature, against which relativist denial and childish spiritual indulgence is a piss in the wind. our tool of survival is reason, and survival is by no means certain right now. philosophy, psychology, ethics, politics, spirituality, relationship cannot meaningfully be divorced from one another - they are all aspects of human consciousness. it begins with sensation, then philosophy , and follows from there. these are the lines of development which are sorely in need of rational cultural invigoration and promotion.
the level of destiny: i get so so sad - like now - when i think what might have been, and what will be unless certain things happen. there is no omega point, there is no magic mechanism that is going to suddenly appear if we all say om at the same time. noone's coming to save us - not god, not technology - and looking at the irrational belief systems which are gaining traction - including a lot of the wishful thinking of the “good guys” (inc zaadz, inc integral institute, inc neo-buddhism, inc much of religion, inc much of pluralism) - i don't think that message is being considered very sympathetically - even by those among the afore-mentioned who have the best intentions. what really makes me sad is that good good people with laudable intentions are only helping to cut off our path of escape or at best not using their potential for positive change, and seem blissfully unaware that the nightmare that we are heading for is more terrible than anything they can imagine, let alone more terrible than the pain of letting go of irrational beliefs. ignorance is not bliss - it is a fucking holocaust, and most people won't even know why it's happening when and if it does. standing by and watching the effects of irrationality and avoidance of reality play out and doing nothing is not something that i feel particularly sympathetic towards. i'm not alone in needing to learn how to communicate with others better, and in a more aware way which engenders rapport not alienation, but shit is going down, and i refuse to do nothing about it.
the cultural values which we as a species promote - which is what we're discussing in these blogs - may well literally mean the difference between a dire damage limitation situation requiring the best of us all - and it will exact a great price from all - and a famine drought disease torture war bloodbath worse than anything in the old testament or in history, as the resource wars hot up, as peak oil makes itself undeniable, as the ignorant hungry march, as might becomes right, as military folly bankrupts, as consumerist cancer spreads, as unfounded economic wealth implodes, as the reality of the situation becomes unavoidable. the horsemen of the apocalypse are gearing up as we speak, and have been practising for a while, but now they've really got some numbers to chew on. reason is not optional, rationality is not optional, critical thinking is not optional. learn them, and learn them well - as if our lives depend on them, because in the not too distant future, they do. and now is the time to do something about it. i'm working on the issue of solutions in my own puny way beyond my pedantic scribblings on this site, and if it will make me a crusader or intolerant or insensitive - because i will be promoting certain values above others - then so be it. some things matter more than others. the fact is that most of the world's population still hasn't gone through the enlightenment - they're exposed to and enjoying the material benefits of it (and the material destruction enabled by the divorcing of action from ethics and thought from reason), but not the philosophical values behind it. and of course, the west needs another enlightenment, or at least a reaffirmation of the values of the first one but with the benefit of our wider and more integrated knowledge now, because the west is pretty much in a cultural and philosophical wasteland too.
if we truly value feelings, if we value compassion, if we value love, if we value human life, there is no escaping the fact that we have to get real, and quickly, and i do not think it inappropriate to talk of duty or responsibility in the context of promoting this culturally. some are fighting for this, and some are working more or less tirelessly for a sustainable rational existence on this fragile mother earth, but their numbers, while growing, are small. we've got work to do…
sense is the defender of sensibility, not it's enemy.
glad that someone else's posts are as long as mine. :) thanks adam. i think (i hope) we all agree that we need to move through another enlightenment…and i also hope we're all going about bringing this change to bear using whichever talents we possess….mine is probably a deep intuitive understanding of people, more in the one-on-one therapeutic context and in and through writing, and getting at the root of the resistance to critical thinking…..but i agree, sense is so absolutely our savior.
ah pelle athat a very generous and insightful observation, thank you kind sir - yea itt's bad out in cali viz the magical thinking zeitgeist and the superficiality of just about anything with the word spiritual or energy attached to it (as wonderful as it is in other ways!)
such a pity because there is such ptotent and valuable work to be done and amazing perspectives out there to share!
i very much appreciate your gestures of late pelle because i have always thought you would be a brilliant and fun zaadz playmate - even though we have rubbed eachother wrong!
So i fnd myself drawn to speak into the goal of this conversation, which by the title i gather it is integration of altered states…..is anger, an altered state? is justifying the “appropriateness” of using negative emotions healthy? Do we understand, and anything I say, can be verified if one chooses to request it…I am not speaking to challenge, offend, or even inform, I am speaking in this moment…to explore reality…so, that said…do we REALLY understand, that to engage the negative emotion, is to cause the nadis (delicate receptors located within the shushumna) to become clogged and blocked due to its reverse nature?…and this sets the spiritual chakra system, out of balance. This is the cause of our dire NEED to integrate these altared states…integrate them INTO the superconscious reality of unconditioned love, the inherent bliss of sat chit anand…
This is the REASON yogis who are focused, will become seemingly emotion free…except for that lovely energy they use to communicate, that some of us know to be “unconditional” love… the purpose of an empowered kriya practice, and I can only guess that Julian does have forms of kriya to offer , albeit not solar empowered, however they would work…to help with this issue of needing to integrate our conscious condition so that we are not swinging from content to upset, and justifying the upset parts by calling them “appropriate”..
This is one of the biggest misunderstandings of yogic teaching I see in the west… to prevent this…and I say this as a yogini who is actively in a condition of love, which is, indeed painful given the reality of this realm (I can often be found working in Wounded Knee, SD, the roughest, most poverty stricken place in our nation, and certainly far from safe for a middle aged woman), and so I work to alleviate this pain, through loveing kindness actions, which prevent any negative energies to arise…such as guilt due to inaction.
When we all know, that a bit more understanding, a bit more UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and some unified, coordinated action amongst the throngs of human beings, would end war, poverty and homelessness in a very short time…
yet we continue to work to integrate this light and dark, this subconscious energy with conscious energy….
What the nath Yogis teach, is to become the light of superconsciousness so completely, that the vestiges of negative mind (more commonly known as the EGO) literally fall away after having been burned off, by the action of the solar empowerd kriya…the spinal love-breath that some beleive even the yogi Jesus was teaching (the nath sampradaya yogis are great record keepers, and have verified these ancient scrolls that recorded the political meetings that at that time, were held in the temples of the himalaya such as in Badrinath, and Kedarnath…they have his name, his nath teachers name, Chetan nath, and the words he spoke, kept semi-secretly so they can be properly preserved, and made known to those who are capable of accepting truth, rather than working to disprove reality)….in prayers of the cosmos the Aramaic teachings of jesus, in the beatitudes it says…”blessed are those that find their home in the breathing” this, indeed, the whole of the beatitudes were a treatise on the results of the kriya practice…
A few days ago my teacher said “if you “think” spirit has talked to you…it hasnt” this is because, when the profundity strikes, as with many who have dealt with the real energy of kundalni…this is a FORCE…not a little mind conversation with the “spirit” of whatever we are obsessing about…..as yogis and yoginis, potentially, our job is to discover “no mind”…and the quickest way to this reality, is to practice, practice, practice…
Most westerners want it to be comfortable, and easy, and sitting in a chair talking out all the darkness not only is a very very easy and self indulgent approach, it indeed, as it turns out, is not at all effective for neutralizing negative mind…it actually gives it a lot of energy, which is DEFINATELY not the goal, if transformation into the light of love, is the union we are all seeking. (my husband holds a PhD in clinical psychology, so I am not being flippant, and not intending to freak out those who have made this their proffession)
At least, this is the union I, myself, have found through this process. I know that it is the deepest goal of every human heart, since all of us are actually part and parcel of this one being, we seek to reunion within…yes?
Julian, this great nath master will be in your area again, soon…you know…the nine black felt belts he wears had to be earned…and each one represents an entire realm of energy mastery…this guy is not to be missed if you are calling yourself a serious yogi…I kid you not.
Becoming more GROUNDED in REALITY is what every single human being needs to do right now…so we can look around our collective human house and ask ourselves, is there suffering occuring that we can end…right now? This relaxed attitude about who's job it is, to help correct the spiritual misunderstandings in the realm in a manner which causes reunion among the lovers of the beloved…is a mystery to me……my mother has approximately six billion five hundred million children on this planet…and most of the women and children on the planet are struggling to eat and live without violence and poverty…who is watching our realm, while we are working to define just what an altered state is? LET US ALTER OURSELVES WITH UNCONDITIONAL LOVE..held STEADY IN THE HEART, all the time…100% of the time…and then…when we know this bliss, we can call ourselves teachers and yogi's…
hamsa means soul…and I am a very very very small soul compared to the universal nature of superconsciousness…this same super consciousness is now working to awaken within himself, why? because negative mind, has changed even the weather, and many of her children fall asleep at night fearful, hungry and desperate to feel loved, in a world that pays far moe attention to the dow and the national gross product ratings….
hhhhmmmmm forgive me, I also do not seek to stimulate negative response, however, sometimes telling the truth can, indeed cause this, as Julian has carefully pointed out.
www.hamsa-yoga.org is a good place to explore some of this reality…
namaste.
ADJJP,
Jim,
Thanks for the AW quote and his light hearted prose. I am mostly gooey but I have my prickly side too. If I was all goo and no prick then… oh never mind.
Daate,
Beautiful comments and insight. Over the course of 4 weeks I saw “What the *&^* Bleep” five times. It took me that long to travel the road from wild enthusiasm, to reservations, to suspicion, to resistance. It first resonated deeply and then as I read more about it and reflected on the story, the themes and the examples it became an example of what Texans call “all hat and no cattle”. Yes, there are some simple truths: volitional attitude correlates with certain brain chemicals. There are interesting ways in which “intention” helps give shape to personal experience. The paradoxical nature of particle physics are interesting to think about. etc. But it really doesn't hang together and after 5 repetitions everything Ramtha said seemed equal measures empty and silly.
This thought just occured to me that WTB is really an elaborate denial of the reality of death. Not just small 'd' but a denial of Death, the end, the void…game over. Hmmm, I'll have to think more about that.
You write:
she proceeded to recite nearly word-for-word the scripts of both “the secret” and “what the bleep”….and to tell us that all emotion comes from love or fear and blah blah blah….we create reality with our thoughts….and on and on…..and we can choose to respond to situations with love, or with fear, which is the root of all “negative” emotions….and i asked some questions and i suppose became a little ornery….but i wanted to know, i really did, how she could possibly account for psychological development in that world of hers….because i've never seen anyone have the gall to stand up in front of a class and lecture on this stuff, especially out of context of the supposed subject matter…..the only concession she made eventually was that we ought not to push the truth on others, as they may not be ready for it, and not to judge other souls, as we don't know those souls' “agendas” or sacred contracts or whatever…..and then added that some aids victims she knew were very grateful to have the disease, as it's made them more “spiritual”…..so we ought not to assume that such people are suffering….
First let me say I salute your courage in not simply rolling over on this. Secondly, I have always envied but never mangaed to emulate people who are able to get angry well. That is, people who don't lose their cool or line of thought but are able to convey their deep passion and conviction eloquently. This can be tricky territory as “anger” can become merely a performance and a means of controlling and dominating a discussion. But I recognize that I don't do confrontation very well. ( Adam, I will reply to you in a separate comment) So I can understand your frustration and as well the tendency for others to respond to the emotion of frustration rather than the content of your concerns. I seem to be echoing Julians brief statements.
How do we accept the reality of suffering and death? How do we come to terms with the fact that at any given moment there are twenty aircraft carrier battle groups patrolling the world's oceans flying our flag? Suffering. Death. Power. Force. How do we face these without going into denial, overwhelm, bitterness or despair? (I've visited all four.)
BTW, is this the link you were searching for Julian? Rapture Ready
I'm feeling very tired all of a sudden, so my apologies for this incomplete reply.
I want to be honest here. Some of the new age themes still resonate with me, not so much in my mind as in my body. I don't take that resonance as a proof of their truthiness but it is a signal to me to keep teasing out meanings and possibilities. Why do these truths have such a strong appeal? My belief, is that there are grains of truth in there worth saving.
Sorry, but I just stared blankly at that last sentence for 3 minutes. I'm gonna take a nap.
I will rejoin this conversation later. It's rich and “stretchy”.
coyote
yes coyote thats the link! thank you….
love the diloag with you my honest, generous, compassionate, intelligent friend!
adam - so dead-on, passionate and beautiful.
coyote - enjoying the process.
johanna - we don't agree on very much viz integration, shadow-work, emotions (i dont think there are any “negative” ones) etc.. i haven't responded to you in detail yet, but seeing as you keep posting here (and you are welcome to continue) here goes:
i hear a very traditionalist hindu perspective which i think is juicy and intense but sorely lacking in the kind of east/west, psyche/spirit integration i am passionate about…..
in addition i am very uncomfortable with the notion of having to “burn off the ego” and go “beyond emotions” in order to live in “pure unconditional love” and that this is what will save the world - i think on the contrary that this dualistic manichean stance is what has gotten us in a great deal of trouble to start with - i hear echos of what i find to be a rather archaic cosmology that i think we need to move beyond..
in peace
~j
coyote yes! an elaborate denial of death as is so much in the new age and trad religious canon….
but even more than that - a denial of the reality of suffering, chaos, victimization, injustice, the solidity of the brick wall in front of you viz the tender flesh of your face etc…
it seems empowering and comforting - but it is actually so divorced from reality as to create a callousness around suffering and a turn-around judgment on people who are genuinely victims of injustice, abuse etc…..
it also is a major brick wall against psychological self-awareness that goes any deeper than trite self-sabotage stoic “get over it” messages….
it also encourages a regression into the fantasy that everything is pliable to my will if i just “believe” and the junk science assertion that quantum physics “proves” that i can literally create my own reality - that i am doing so all the time anyway - and it doesnt take very long to see the massive problems with following that premise to its logical conclusions…. auschwitz? child-rape? sweat shops? maimed and dead children in iraq? cancer?
i echo daate from a little earlier - i don't care about the tint grains of truth in there - the poison waaaaay cancels it out and the truths they are alluding to/mangling are much better engaged via other, cleaner means…
why is this stuff so popular? it is kistchy faux-scientific spiritual sugar that mirrors our superficial culture of instant gratification and narcissistic omnipotence. period.
coyote: thanks, i hope you're feeling ok. yes, my nervous system tends to get activated when i'm pissed to the point of losing my ability to think clearly sometimes; i'm learning to contain and manage that activation and stay centered in anger if need be. this is so critical to conveying myself well. and what you said about new agey stuff still resonating with you: i know what you mean, as a lot of stuff that is actually valid gets lumped into the category of “new age” such as chakras, the word “energy” in general, words like transcend and consciousness—all which serve to stimulate those parts of us that i think recognize our exciting capacity for growth as people. the trouble is teasing out the substance. it is hard for me to explain to people that i believe in chakras and the ayeurvedic approach to healing and states of consciousness, but that i find astrology, solipsistic thinking and the “you create your own reality” to be bullshit. they feel very different to me in my body and always have. but i understand the body's response to the all this; and i think that's where a lot of the confusion lies, because i think a lot of people's bodies get stimulated and fired up and excited by even those words. i think the words themselves resonate in the nervous system and maybe half-induce something like an altered state? maybe? i don't know.
daate thanks for making me look like a neanderthal! :O)
coyote i hope i didnt offend - it's just my INTJ nature……
i too resonate with daate's expression and find it much more personal and personable!
and funnily enough have an almost identicle dividing line between valid gournded powerful alternative stuff and complete superficial and nonsensical BS,
peace
~j
Adam, you write very densely and I could take days to fully respond to all the different points you make, which I don't have time to do_ but I appreciate this conversation.
Before you asked:
by what method do you assess your beliefs for validity?
I don't have a method for assessing the truth of my beliefs. Beliefs have a way of being self-confirming. My beliefs are the filters and contexts which stand between me and my direct perception of the world and more often than not, they come in disguise posing as that very direct perception. I think I'm seeing the truth when in fact I'm only looking in a distorted mirror. Part of my process and commitment to spiritual growth is to discover what my beliefs are and have them stand clear in the light of day. Writing this response is serving in that capacity now.
The process of exploring and illumining beliefs can be done in a number of ways. Directly I have found The Work to be useful. I say that with a somewhat rueful smile as I dismissed these 4 questions as the worst of newage hooey for years. Some good friends who I very much respect invited me to hear BK speak and I spent two hours in tears. Hmmmmmm. I trust my body more than my mind and this was a powerful somatic response contrary to my snobbish sense of “taste”. Okay, so there is one answer_ I trust my body, not to reveal a belief's truth but its existence. It is a diagnostic tool. What I believe is what shakes me up and stirs my soul.
(I think that the body is the greatest teacher in addition to alot of other things. Adyashanti, who I have studied with, says that enlightenment happens from the neck down. How annoying. When I first heard this I had a lot of thoughts about it. Thoughts are just thoughts. The body does not stop at the skin. Is that a belief?)
The most powerful part of the 4 questions is the use of turn arounds, particularly with relationships. It can be quite liberating. I don't do the work very often but everytime I have it has yielded significant insight and a sense of freedom.
Other methods that can reveal beliefs: integrative breathwork, council work, relationships, meditation and most recently_ serious illness. Pragmatically I am less interested if a belief is true than is it resourceful? Is it leading me to greater health and sense of connection? Am I more productive, more present, more creative? Does it give me a greater sense of liveliness?
The most telling example of this in my own life is my participation in a 12 step program. The steps and the literature are not to my taste at all. In fact, I find them quite indefensible both logically and philosophically. The language is hopelessly dualistic and paternalistic. But the belief in those steps is very resourceful. This is quite mysterious to me. The 12 steps are resourceful for my own sobriety, for participating in sacred community and for genuine service. So I “believe” in the 12 steps even though my rational mind finds all kinds of problems with it. Rather, I do the steps and then notice that my life is better. I behave as if I believed. It is very humbling. Humbling is good. Humbling creates space for new understanding and new responses.
You champion rational, logical, coherent critical thinking. I don't disagree with you that it is important, but I don't find it to be preeminent in determining my responses to direct experience. Some of my responses are reactions buried in past trauma and family dynamics. Some are inherited from my schooling and work experience. And sometimes, ever so briefly, I am simply fully present in the moment _free of all beliefs and all philosophies. My “goal” is to release and relax into that timeless space, to live life from that place where the center is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.
So the short answer is I'm not interested in my beliefs validity per se, I am interested in what direct impact they have on my day to day life.
taking a deep breath,
enjoying the exchange,
coyote
And no Julian, I'm not offended by your comments. I've been getting a much better sense of who you are and am finding it easier to give you the benefit of the doubt. If I do get triggered then there is one more belief to look at.
peace to you guys, too.
And toodle loo.
I definately only want to post where the information, which is eduactional, is actually well received.
I am not a hindu, and ancient yogic science has been ignored by our western egocentrics for so long, I do beleive we have lost touch with the difference between truth, fact, and phantisee….
namaste.
hamsa no offense and the information you are sharing is valued.
Hey everyone… just caught up on the posts from the last few days and have highly enjoyed them…
Adam, I don’t think your question “by what method do you assess your beliefs for validity” has been addressed correctly…let’s see if I can get this right:
Isn’t the whole point of integral theory to insist that no quadrant can reduced into a different quadrant? Correlations, yes, absolutely, this level of realization will correlate to this brain pattern, or conversely this brain state pattern probably means the subject is functioning in this fashion, but one cannot be reduced to the other.
Adam, although it’s clear in your writing that experientially you value both the UL and the UR, it looks like to me that you revert to just the UR for your basis of validity. Integral theory rejects that.
For you, neurological patterns are the explanation, and in order to uphold that, I even seem to be catching that you are choosing to impose a less clear interpretation of “it’s unknowable” on top of what I suspect is a spiritual realization deeper than that?
Here’s another way of looking at it, a thought experiment I came up with right now. I can use Ocam’s razor entirely within the UL: if every mystic who has meditated long enough says the same thing: “I AM!”, or “it is all one”, etc. wouldn’t Ocam’s razor dictate “gee every person says the same thing, there’s a good chance that interpretation must be true?”
Hm, looking at this previous paragraph… my point was to show that Ocam’s razor can be used to be reductionistic, and it could also be used to uphold metaphysical assertions if you played with it in just the UL realm. Both quadrants if absolutized lead to less than the whole truth as it is unfolding now.
Thoughts?
hi mark
very briefly - i'm playing hooky here
Adam, I don’t think your question “by what method do you assess your beliefs for validity” has been addressed correctly
coyote answered the question (twice!) with some great points which i definitely relate to, even though i was looking more for ontological and epistemological content. he chose a type of belief and its relation to experience and consciousness which is really important to address, he just gave a different slant on the question, using a specific meaning of the word validity. i'm not dissatisfied! and i'll be getting back to him on those points.
…let’s see if I can get this right:
Isn’t the whole point of integral theory to insist that no quadrant can reduced into a different quadrant? Correlations, yes, absolutely, this level of realization will correlate to this brain pattern, or conversely this brain state pattern probably means the subject is functioning in this fashion, but one cannot be reduced to the other.
not sure if it's the whole point of the integral methodology, but in any case, i'm not sure why you think i'm trying to reduce one to the other - from my point of view, i'm after greater clarity between them, not less, as i see a lot of reduction and confusion of them esp. among integral advocates. specifically, i see mystics, religious followers and new age advocates as frequently and erroneously assigning UL experience to the UR.
Adam, although it’s clear in your writing that experientially you value both the UL and the UR, it looks like to me that you revert to just the UR for your basis of validity.
for ontological confirmation of things that belong in the UR (objective reality) - yes. i would advise others to do the same - it'd save us all a lot of tears. if you mean that i reject the existence of non-material things or do not recognise their validity, i'd refer you to my comments above to coyote.
one thing that i have noticed on numerous occasions is that when i mention objective reality, it produces accusations of reductionism and marginalising of experience. i think this has more to do with psychology of the accuser than integral protocol or philosophical accuracy. if i talk about cheese, it doesn't mean that i am rejecting peanut butter, bread, or anything else - i just happen to be talking about cheese.Integral theory rejects that.
as, coincidentally, do i (referring to the methodology you mistakenly ascribe to me)
For you, neurological patterns are the explanation,
for what?
and in order to uphold that, I even seem to be catching that you are choosing to impose a less clear interpretation of “it’s unknowable” on top of what I suspect is a spiritual realization deeper than that?
you've lost me here - you'll have to cite and explain. i don't think your interpretation as i grasp it matches my views - maybe i didn't make something clear.
Here’s another way of looking at it, a thought experiment I came up with right now. I can use Ocam’s razor entirely within the UL: if every mystic who has meditated long enough says the same thing: “I AM!”, or “it is all one”, etc. wouldn’t Ocam’s razor dictate “gee every person says the same thing, there’s a good chance that interpretation must be true?”
i'm not sure you get the principle of occam's razor. it is not a tool of convenience. it doesn't dictate anything. in any case, social proof is not proof, and the things the mystics say in your example aren't very meaningful statements, plus you're positing that occam's razor dictates a probability - “a good chance” which wouldn't generally be considered a valid qualification of a sufficient explanation for anything.
Hm, looking at this previous paragraph… my point was to show that Ocam’s razor can be used to be reductionistic
the principle of occam's razor can precisely not (correctly) be used to be reductionistic. any explanation simpler than the evidence requires violates the aforementioned principle
and it could also be used to uphold metaphysical assertions if you played with it in just the UL realm. Both quadrants if absolutized lead to less than the whole truth as it is unfolding now.
in what way is clear identification of subjective and objective different from absolutising them? and how does that diminish the sum of either?looking at your comment overall, i find myself wondering what it is that you're seeking to correct and/or defend, and what method or view you propose as preferable. maybe both our views require more complex discussion to be clear what the differences are, if any?
ciao 4 now
Daate,
I much appreciate your comments on the interplay of body and ideas (new age or otherwise) and the interesting opportunities for growth and development implied. I trained as a breathworker with this group based in Texas. When I came across the website by doing a google search on “breathwork”, I had a direct, physical and psychological recognition of arriving home. Certification requires a minimum of three 6 day workshops and 1 ten day. The certification itself is two 14 day teaching/workshops that are 6 months apart. I found it to be very intense and transformative ( and also shadowy and the 'sacred container' had serious leaks_ but that is another story…) What I remember about the teaching sessions was a powerful sense of not hearing “new” information and ideas, so much as remembering something that had slipped away. That re-membering was equal parts somatic, mental and emotional. Lots of the theory (and I use that word very loosely) is based on a mix of Jung, Campbell, new age this and that, and the work of Alice Bailey. It has taken a few years to tease out the various strands of stories and figure out what I still value and hold to be important. For instance I don't find it important that I am a 7th ray, first monad type. It didn't really resonate then and it doesn't now. But the teachings around the chakra system and the different ways that the chakras relate to each other was and is rich with meaning and insight.
I find astrology much more problematic. I accept that it is not a science, it is an art. It has its own domain of language, images, ideas and inter-relations which in the right hands can be wonderfully entertaining and illumining. I'm thinking in particular of the work of Carolyn Casey who is a wonderful storyteller, astrologer and political activist all rolled together. I heard her speak when she came to Maine and found her to be quite wonderful. She spoke for two hours and it was way too short. Her ability to synthesize information and present a “big picture” view is very gifted. She has a number of interesting quotes among them ” Remember, we don't believe in astrology_ we just notice that it works.” I appreciate how her mind works and I love her playfulness with current events and personalities. Because of her I can't dismiss astrology. I don't pay much attention to it but I can't throw it out the window either. Incidentally, I took my father, step mother, uncle and his spouse with me to hear her speak and none of them are either interested in or particularly familiar with any of the 'new age' lexicon. They loved her. So in an adept artist's hands I think astrology can be a useful mirror much like Myers Briggs, or possibly the enneagram (of which I know nothing).
So a long winded reply. I try to be sensitive to my bodys responses to information and that response is an important component of my immediate gestalt and eventual understanding.
Julian says it well:
” the discomfort with tension and healthy anger is diagnostic.“ coupled with ”again ironically the counter from the new age is that you are being too heady and need to just feel it - unfortunately in order to buy this stuff you have to be dissociated from feeling!”
This is the essence of spiritual by-pass, which only works for awhile and even then not very well. If I look closely at the lives of those who are in its dynamic I see little integration with everyday life. Few deeply into new age interpretations are physically healthy, emotionally honest or fully present.
time to go sit on the cushion
coyote
coyote - great respect and affection to you and your sincere dedicated practice - it shows in your posts here my friend.
Out of my committment to serve community humanity, I decided to respond to your comments, before permanently parting company with this conversation.
Gopi Krishna wrote his books from a place of having NO EXTERNAL MASTER, or QUALIFIED KUNDALINI GUIDE…he awakened his energy on his own, and chose to go it alone much in the same way a child will attempt to fix an electrical wiring problem if he is unsupervised, and thinking he “can do it himself”….
As have many of the Self Realization Network folks, Jyoti Prevat, Stanislof Groff, Christina Groff…these folks (and my PhD hubby knows them pesonally) are the modern spiritual psychological experts, who do not have access to the voltage, or the solar electric arch that must be “stepped down” as through a regulator or an inverter into the human form, so we do not become “electrocuted” by the sheer voltage of raw GOD power…this is WHY the nath Yogis, the original scientists of our solar yogic sciences…had to earn NINE blacks belts, to master these forces. It is also why none of these guys can tell you what a “solar return” is, or why one might want to acheive this….
Julian, you state:
in addition i am very uncomfortable with the notion of having to “burn off the ego” and go “beyond emotions” in order to live in “pure unconditional love” and that this is what will save the world - i think on the contrary that this dualistic manichean stance is what has gotten us in a great deal of trouble to start with - i hear echos of what i find to be a rather archaic cosmology that i think we need to move beyond…
In Patanjali's Yoga Sutras it teaches that : every 2,000 years a kundalini expert comes, to help us burn off the accumulated negative charges of energy that develop through too much stress and tension being allowed to gather on the INSIDE of the human electrical system…these same yogis are to this day ressurrecting mercury into a solid, and using it for the physical transformation of matter, into light….liquids into solids and vice versa….
For you to be calling what divine transformed beings have been teaching throughout the history of mankind as “archaic” shows me the scope to which arrogance has rooted itself into the mind set of our contemporary Yoga instructors…this level of lack of knowledge, about the human electrical system, and its ability to raise its conscious
“self as awareness” up into the superconscious reality of divine consciousness………also demonstrates how needed this information really is.
Yogiraj Siddhanath (and remember, Siddharta was a Siddha who became the “Buddha” yes?) Yogiraj is a lineage anchor, and carrier…he is respectively, a King from the solar dynasty, who was ordered into our realm to help correct the misunderstandings…he will be addressing the United Nations full Caucus on October 25th, to gift them with the direct transmission of the healing “no mind” condition, so he can DEMONSTRATE to them how, on the level of consciousness, humanity is ALREADY ONE……!
This direct experience of the no mind condition, and the back up of the solid, spiritually charged Mercury Lingham, being placed into a temple yoni in the Sita Mae Valley in India, will help correct this wobble within the collective subconscious.
Spending our time dwelling on “shadow work” is no more than wading in the mud…we do not become “clean” until we bathe within the showered light of truth. You will discover that within all authentic ancient spiritual systems the practice of only thinking “good thoughts” about ourselves and each other, when obeyed, creates a human being who REMAINS WHOLE throught their lives…REGARDLESS of what this illusion called MAYA, enacts upon them…this, is spiritual reality…a reality all of us would do well to tune to.
www.hamsa-yoga.org
namaste…
I am bowing before my SELF….a perfect mirror…
hamsajohanna - thanks so much for bringing your particular perspective to the discussion.
the labyrinthine complexity, urgent intensity, otherworldy metaphysics and religious self-assurance behind your words speaks for itself.
i wish you well dear sister.
namaste
~julian
Hamsajohanna,
You write:
Out of my committment to serve community humanity, I decided to respond to your comments, before permanently parting company with this conversation.
Please don't part company with us mud wallowers just yet. You bring an important perspective to this conversation. I value what you have to say. Besides, if we are all one, where ya'gonna go? It's just SELF expressing itself. I would ask that you be willing to stand ”within the showered light of truth” on this thread and let anyone who wishes to, engage you in a conversation about the content of your post.
I have to go off to an appointment but will write some more when I return. I sincerely hope you'll stick around.
blessings,
coyote
i'm just relieved that - as foretold in the secret ancient scriptures - a messiah has come to help correct the wobble and point us to our true energetic connection with divine superconsciousness, which, combined with positive thinking, should do the trick and save us from our predicament.
and finally - the UN might get some real power.
hamsa - my skepticism aside, and with sincere respect to your person and the loving real actions you take in this world, (which as you rightly point out eclipse unnecessary talk): presumably the benefit generated by the thinking habits you endorse is not compromised by disbelief of the claims you make, so that thinking good and loving thoughts about ourselves and others (which at the level of the person, if not unconditionally of behaviour, is generally agreed to be a sound practise) can continue to work its healing effect irrespective of those beliefs, and any other mechanisms will make their presence felt in due course. or is faith a prerequisite for realisation of the supermind phenomenon which you are describing?
if it all pans out - which would be great - i'll be the first to give you a big hug. seriously. we could do with a miracle, and i think what you're describing would qualify as such. i don't understand how it might work at all, but there are lots of things i don't understand.
your intention and your passion and love are exactly the strengths i think we do need more of if radical cultural change is to occur. i would seriously question the strategy and methods and philosophy which you propose for promoting them.
i second that johanna - stick around add your voice to the mix and be willing to hear some other voices - the more the merrier!
best
~julian
hi hamsajohanna,
if you're still around, that is. I don't know how qualified i am to say much, and in this case i might come off as the neanderthal…..but what i can say is that i respect your concern for humanity, the understanding that stuff needs to get done, and your partaking here. i think this may be an instance in which a debate may not even be really fruitful. I'm trying to recognize when those times may be. adam put things pretty eloquently in the post above….so anyway, thank you for your contribution.
I've been catching up on the posts today and have really enjoyed them. I especially liked the back and forth between Adam and coyoteyogi. I saw some real tension initially but it seems to have dissolved into mutual respect and desire to understand the other person's perspective. Props too to Julian for holding the space, skillfully moderating, and facilitating these kinds of dialogues.
There has been a few posts lately about how we can overcome a lot of the challenges currently facing us. I think the best solution to almost every current problem is good old human development up structure-stages (such as those described by Gebser, Wilber, Clare Graves, etc.). If Kim Jung Il developed from egocentric red to worldcentric orange (to use spiral dynamics colors), I would be much less concerned about him having nuclear weapons. He would realize using them could ruin his economy. That is part of the reason why I like these dialogues so much. You have an opportunity to learn from new perspectives, refine your own perspective, identify some of your shadow material, and be better prepared to spread higher altitude messages in the world when appropriate (this is a big when and the ethics behind this was discussed a bit earlier up in this discussion. I think there needs to be a balance between allowing people to be wherever they are but also interjecting in certain situations when people are open to higher perspectives or when they may fall prey to lower ones). Daate's contributions earlier regarding her experiences fighting against the magical thinking of What the Bleep and The Secret represents a fantastic example of bringing helpful messages to a situation where a lot of people could get caught up in the allure of simplistic magenta thinking. I particularly liked how anger, often thought of as a negative emotion to be avoided, was used constructively here.
okay, okay…back by popular demand (and a knock on the zaadz email door as well)
I appreciate the desire to keep me in the conversation. I appreciate that I have, at least intrigued you enough to make an effort to truly hear my words.
And for me…debate is not fruitful unless those I exchange with have more information about reality than I do…and I do not mean to sound locked into my reality, because, honestly, few are further from a locked in reality than those of us within the nath sampradaya…. which is where the lords of compassion have trained from the beginning of time. And, every incarnation, they have to re-earn those nine black belts…and I…a peon, less than a peon in this order of acharyas, havent earned even one belt.
However, the human chakra system does indeed need to be balanced and tuned up, just like a car engine needs to be regularly tuned up in order to run efficiently, and this is what the kundalni practices are meant to do. Raja Yoga and Kundalni Yoga are all aspects of Hamsa yoga, the yoga of soul evolution. Even the word evolution has love spelled backward right out in front. ~ volution means to be propelled forward…so, to “evolve” we need to “become the love” moving from moment now, to moment now, which indeed can become a volution, and love will cause us to evolve once we comprehend, deeply, that this is exactly what we came here to learn how to do, in the first place.
Only perceiving ourselves as separate from that unconditioned, constantly radiating love, can propell us into a story as dark as this one….and the only way it can ge this dark…is to become angry or dissillusioned with reality, and hence…the contracted mind begins its rationalization of who, what where and WHY life is how it is.
We do not accomplish “reunion within our parent source, or oversoul consciousness”, simply by moving the body and thinking good thoughts, and then integrating all the mud of the mind into some form of justified story…we have to address the bioelectric realities that have us stuck in this self destructive pattern that has become so painful for us, that awakening is our only chance of survival…but then…isnt that what was happening in the Mahabarata…after all??? I mean, really? Arnt we just repeating the same moment, over and over…like the physicists will have us beleive? Now, is folding into now…yes?
Namaste, and let the barrage of “re actions” to my words begin…..(wink)
thank you, elijah. :) yes, i think refining perspectives is good, as well as honoring (and honing the presentation of) healthy outrage.
Hi hamsajohanna. Glad to have you back. :) I would like to respond to share my understanding of the value of shadow work in addition to the spiritual work you suggest. I totally agree that you can miss out on fundamental realizations about the true nature of reality if you only do work on your psyche and do not engage in a serious spiritual practice as you strongly recommend. I think though that shadow work can help avoid some of the guru pitfalls as Julian has articulately described in another of his blogs. For example, having a misbalanced psychograph where with high spiritual development but low psychosexual development or related pathologies could lead to gurus who sexually abuse their students. Does that make sense?
Hi elijah!
I would say that abuse is in the eyes of the perceiver…many east indian teachers come to the west completely oblivious to the fact that westerners have a frenetic obsession with all that is sexual, and that if a female disciple has sex with a teacher and gets mad, well, sudenly abuse has taken place. Not realizing that in indian culture, it is much less likely that a sexual infraction by a mated partner would cause such an incredible huff in a society.
What the yogis (and yoga means literally union in sanscrit) are doing, is LIFTING the consciousness UP into higher realms, which is why the sexual urges become less intense if one has decided consciously to undertake this lifting energetically, out of those lower chakras…
and, i would add, that if a guru or teacher is engageing in practices that cause hurt, harm or drama, and is doing so with students who are not playing the game by the rules everyone collectively agrees to, then perhaps it would be wise to find a new teacher….
and….enlightened and transformed people DO INDEED still have sex!
My main point, is that ALL of this is accomplished by practice of Kriya's (breath actions)with Mudras (using a physical seal to seal the energy cultivated by doing the Kriyas into the aura of the practitioner) and Bhakti (activating devotional love in the heart) yoga…NONE of this is accomplished through “therapy”.
thanks again elijah. hamsajohanna, i don't think anyone was suggesting that enlightened people don't have sex, or that consensual sex is not ok. but abuse is abuse, in whichever culture—and it is defined as one person in a position of power taking advantage of another. this is a tricky line, because of course fully functional adult students practicing with a guru would seem, and often are, capable of making decisions from a place of clarity and accountability. i guess it lies with the guru, and what his/her intentions are, and whether he or she encourages the student's growth and health regardless of their own advantage, and whether he or she is manipulating the student's own emotional needs to suit their own ends.
I would also argue that quite a bit can be accomplished through therapy, if you have the right therapist and therapeutic relationship. the heart can open, the body can become a container for more love, and energy can be freed up to circulate and become altogether less trapped and more productive. more love in the body is a by-product of effective therapy. i understand the reluctance to acknowledge the potential usefulness of shadow work and therapy, but both, when done integratively and responsibly, can lead to the places i think you are describing. i don't think psychological and spiritual practice are mutually exclusive; i think they absolutely need to go hand in hand in order for a person to emerge whole, intact and grounded. it sounds as though you've had some interesting experiences with gurus, and i hope you have found the kind of guru that is fully accoun